Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
1 December 2009
07:3434141#1
We have often heard that term before...I was only following orders. It is often used by arch criminals trying to squirm out from under their appalling crimes. But nevertheless in some cases it might just apply. Demjanjuk's trial has just begun but according to his lawyers he was a lowly youth being told what to do by the real criminals. The prosecutors claim he was at the Sobibor death camp in WWII in which 27,000 jews were exterminated. Demjanjuk denies being there but others say even if he was there, he would have been nothing but a very minor figure.
Lets face it, when we are young we stand around like wide-eyed innocents, or did in my day but of course the world isnt quite so innocent now. But in those times you were told to sweep up here, empty that bin over there, pull that switch there...and yes you followed orders, absolutely every order because A. you wanted to get on well in your job as they werent ten a penny and B. very often you didnt know any better.
Imagine if the individual soldiers who took part in an offensive in Afghanistan today, where innocent people were in advertently killed, and were then tried as war criminals later even though they were told to fire on the particular location, well then it would not be right. It is right in cases like the MyLai Massacre where a US officer went apparently 'nuts' in Vietnam and wiped out a whole village. But in this case it was the officer who gave the orders, it was he who was the real guilty one. They got the right man.
There has to be a point reached where the ordinary soldier, who is after all just a small cog in a large wheel, is not the REAL guilty one. Its in that large wheel where the guilt lies. Anyway isnt it the case that the ordinary individual was at that time very afraid to disobey for fear of being shot himself, if he didnt follow instructions. A regular occurrence in those times.
I know we all want to see the real perpetrators brought to trial, if any of them are still alive, but are we now getting desperate by persecuting nobody's on the grand scale of things to satisfy some spiritual need for retribution..
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
1 December 2009
08:3434142#2
There is a huge differenmce between innocents being killed by crossfire or by accident as in Afghanistan and them being targetted and murdered deliberately as in My Lai or the death camps of Nazi Germany.
From what I read he was an enthusiastic Nazi so it would be naive to assume that he did not know and actively support the purpose of the death camps. I read today that he himself pulled the trigger, only following orders is no excuse, he could have joined an ordinary army unit to fight a honest war and not the SS. He frankly deserves whatever comes to him and it is tragic that he has only been brought to justice at such an old age.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
1 December 2009
17:2934169#3
Difficult subject this. Haven`t seen or read the story yet, (or the truth). It`s still good to see they`re still being hounded out. I don`t care how old they are, keep exposing them.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
1 December 2009
17:5734171#4
i would have to go along with colin on this one, sadists should never be left to die in comfort.
in every conflict they come out of the woodwork and enjoy inflicting pain and death on the innocent.
1 December 2009
18:2234179#5
I totally support the seeking out of and the trials of war criminals. I also, however, am mindful of how ordinary people respond to extraordinary events. There is that old experiment that crops up from time to time in which Ordinary Folk are asked to administer a short electric shock to someone out of their sight but within hearing - of course, there is no shock, but the person administering it does not know that and only hears the increasing sounds of discomfort and then pain as they are urged to administer ever larger shocks. It is not surprising when you are as old as me that many many people continue to administer shcoks even when the sounds indicate real and prolonged pain, if asked to do so by a "man in a white coat" who seems to be in charge.
We never know how we would have reacted in circumstances, no matter how ethical we think we are or how much integrity we think we have. There are no excuses, but as with our soldiers who appear to commit acts that are unacceptable during times of War, extraordinary circumstances can lead to unusual and extraordinary behaviour. A friend of mine years ago had survived concentration camps. She had been forced to choose which of her children was allowed to live. Living with that was indescribable. Good people have done bad things, and vice versa. I find it hard to stand in judgement.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
5 December 2009
19:2734406#6
In no way condoning the actions of the Nazi's it should be pointed out that the SS high command were concerned about the effect that their extermination "work" could have on their soldiers and those who applied for transfers were granted them. The death camps were the only part of the Nazi machine that could be opted-out of so, on the basis that ignorance is no excuse, any who stayed in them can never claim to be "only following orders".
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
5 December 2009
20:5234413#7
from what i have read on the subject, the germans were in a minority of guards in the death camps.
the ss had eager recruits from eastern europe, especially the ukraine, quite happy to go about their duties there.