Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
We cannot let the G20 go by without comment on this forum.
There is no doubt at all that the G20 was the biggest exercise in spin in history. The fact is that whatever their postuering none on the leaders there could risk a failure. Talks of walk-outs, spats and differences were primarily for domestic consumption and had no traction in the conference itself. So heavily spun was this conference that even reports of 'Gordon worked the room' were nothing to do with journalistic observation but all, but to do with Gordon telling them that was what he did.
The BBC, Labour's cheerleaders in chief, fell for the spin hook line and sinker and with a lack of real things to say about what went on all the news outlets were initially 'on message'.
That did not last. 24 hours later serious journalists started asking some serious questions. They started, inconveniently, asking about the £1tn. What became obvious was that this is no stimulus and the Brown demands for initially a £5tn stimulus, downgraded to £3tn, then spread from being over one year to two, was nothing to do with this £1tn over an undefined period. They started to realise that this is all smoke and mirrors, the money does not exist or certainly not as 'new money'. It was a big con trick.
Today in the News of the World, Fraser Nelson describes the G20 as a 'soufflet summit', tap it and its gone. He pointed out that there has been no deal to save the world at all, despite the impression the Government tried to give.
Credit where credit is due, though, Brown did do well. He did not achieve any of his boasts, certainly none of his much boasted stimulus' but seeing that what the economy needs is confidence, this 'soufflet summit' and all the spin, does have a role to play as far as the consumers are concerned, if not the economic experts. We cannot though, get away from the fact that Brown is fully responsible for just how badly the UK is positioned in this recession, so just one cheer.
Darling today brought us all down to earth from the G20 spin with a bump. He has admitted what I said on this forum after his Pre-Budget report, that he was too optimistic with his forcasts and the recovery will take longer to start. He is now saying the end of this year but I still believe early 2010 is more likely. The public will not feel the benefit until late 2010 or even 2011, unemployment is a lagging indicator and c. 3.5m is likely to be reached before it gets better.
We still have a very difficult year ahead. The G20 solved nothing.
Guest 650- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 542
Heh! I'm sure more than one person is thinking this, Barry.
But we should never underestimate the worth of a big party where people get together in a pleasant atmosphere and mingle, even if it does involve home-made custard. Indeed, that no one appears to have thrown any, not even our dear queen at Signor B, may bode well, I suggest ...
Either that, or none of them has a sense of slapstick humour.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,696
Depends on what you were expecting
I expected nothing much to come out of it other than agreements regarding tighter regulation of tax havens and hedge funds - so for me it achieved what I expected.
If you believed the hype and expected more then you will have been disappointed
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
it depends on what you are looking for but dont hold your breath its termanal.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i thought that all summits, whether g20 or whatever, were always just a photocall?
everything is discussed in advance, press releases completed and signed, the bigwigs stock up on the duty free and everyone is happy.
surely some sort of video conferencing would save a fortune.
might also cut back on the yobbish behaviour that it attracts.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Alastair Darling has said himself that the G20 Summit wasnt a quick fix...so Im sure Gordon Brown feels and knows the same. But it was a great step forward in joint co-ordination, so that everyone is, or should be, tackling it together from this point on. The problem being global, a global response is needed. It was significant in that it got all the world leaders onboard and to have all these guys engaged in dialogue is always good. Relationships are built and so on. Barack Obama got to meet everyone at one fell swoop which must have been useful to him. It was also good to hear him praise Gordon Brown for his sterling efforts in putting it all together. If the world recovers that bit sooner then perhaps Gordon should get the credit.
As we said though...no quick fix..but heading in the right direction.
So it was a souffle to some extent but not one without a good crusty foundation.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Obama's praise for Gordon? We now knowwhy, he wanted those extra troops out of the UK for Afghanistan, annoucind a couple of days after the praise...
As for sterling work - never forget that we owe to Brown the sheer depth of the mess we are now in, far worse than other European members of the G20.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
i dunno germany and italy are worse than us.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
No, not at all Brian. The EU, the OECD and the IMF back my point, who do you have to back yours Brian?
Guest 683- Registered: 11 Feb 2009
- Posts: 1,052
Barry, Barry, Barry....
How do you keep up with the ever changing messages that blow from Conservative Central Office - or are these thoughts all yours? Whichever, either you or I are very confused as my recollection of your pronouncements (including going back to the Dover Web days) is very different.
I seem to remember you telling me that the good economic times of a few years ago were nothing to do with Brown but all due to the remarkable legacy of the Conservatives. Now that the global economy has gone down the pan it's Brown's fault and no-one else's. I also seem to recall you saying that free-enterprise, deregulation and free-marketeering were the only ways the country would be great again. Now that free marketeers have shown they will take the world to economic ruin in order to squeeze the last bit of profit out, without any thought for the rest of us, you want the government to get involved and regulate the systems! I am also sure that you used to claim that there was no problem with cctv, dna registers etc as if you had nothing to hide you had nothing to fear. I note that today you state: "This surveilance society has gone far too far and this is just one aspect of the ever more powerful, intrusive, nannying and authoritan State in which we now live."
Spin or reality? I'm dizzy!!
Mark
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
barryw,you ask whos backing me,well its me, me and oh yes me again.does this answer your question.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Mark - yes indeed the long period of growth we experienced was entirely due to benign international circumstances and the 'golden legacy' not Gordon Brown. The depth of the problems we have now stem from this Governments actions and inactions during that period and therefore I am being entirely consistent.
The examples of where Brown went wrong are numerous with the most obvious being his failure to prepare for the bad times by repaying Government debt in the good times. When should a Government be expected to reduce its level of debt then Mark, during an economic downturn? No thats when debt levels should be allowed to rise, the answer is when the economy is growing of course. As soon as the restraints Brown imposed on himself in 1997 of keeping to Ken Clarke's spending plans finished, Brown went on a spending binge when he should have carried on repaying debt.
I could go on to the changes he imposed on the regulatory framework that directly led to interest rates being kept too low for too long, feeding a consumer debt binge. Then there is the discouragment of people to save and invest for their future. There is more and I have mentioned that many times.
All these are issues I have raised and discussed well before the crunch. This is not hindsight. There is just one issue that I did not raise before and that was the mistake Brown made over his brief to the Bank of England. That I admit I did not spot as a problem at the time.
Incidentally - I state here my views and have frequently differed from the official Conservative view and in fact recently I did say that the Conservatives have not been bold enough in levelling with people about the scale of public spending cuts that need to be made. They are starting to correct that though but still have a way to go.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Brian... so we all have to ask ourselves who is right on that point. You or the IMF, EU or OECD mmmmm, a difficult one that. I think I will stick with the IMF/EU/OECD side of the argument.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
ok barry you do it your way and i will do it my way.ps its a global resesion in which young gorden cant be blamed for.as for germany/italy thing there gdp are worse than ours by miles acording to tv news reports.
Know what? We should just agree that all shades of every political colour has led us to this mess, has either created it wilfully or failed to address it until it cr**s in our own boots. "Whoever you vote for the Government gets in", and don't you forget it. Take a good, hard look at the local and national politicians, weigh up their person skills, their PR, their honesty and (don't laugh too hard - the NHS can't cope with the extra work if you blow a gasket) their trustworthiness. Would you leave one of your children with one of them? Would you leave your open wallet lying around? Would you believe a single word they said that didn't come with a sworn affidavit and signed testimonials? And yet we allow them to run our country, define our laws, control our DNA and our images, manage our childrens education (which is yet again being skewed towards the wealthy), protect our citizens. What are we thinking?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
One reason I am a Tory Bern is because I dont want too much power entrusted in people who seek it. I want power to be decentralised as much as is reasonable back down to individuals for preference. Hence my support for privatisation, the sale of Council Houses and so on. For me one of the most exciting things about the emerging Conservative programme is the decentralisation focus.
Forgive me, but they are still careerist politicians, some of whom couldn't do a proper job anyway even if given a chance. Privitisation and the selling off of the silver just leaves us impoverished in many ways, not the least of which is spiritually because we view health care and social support solely as a means of making money. And I have worked (in a previous incarnation and probably because I am evil!) for private health and social care companies so don't tell me otherwise. Making a buck out of ill health and social deprivation is never going to be right or even useful. And please, there is nothing exciting about this current shower, blue, red or magenta with purple spots. Decentralisation is a word politicians use, much like Power, Caring, Citizens Rights, Inclusion, that is trendy at the time and they think will capture a few stray votes - it is meaningless, impossible to police, and rsults merely in confusion for the parties as they struggle successively to "put right" the misdemeanours of the previous government. they are, in brief, s***.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i love those buzz words too bern.
it all started with trade union leaders queuing up to describe their "members aspirations" and seems to end up temporarily with deregulation and decentralisation.
the phrase i despise the most is "doing nothing is not an option", then they go on to do nothing.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
My God Bern....what a woman..
I'd hate to meet you on a bad day!
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)