Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
19 December 2008
09:1011195I've just received this from Daniel Hannan MEP. It doesn't matter who wrote it as it's true.
It does show that the people of Europe's views, matter so much less that the Leaders' views.
We'll have the Treaty whatever the costs. Here's the piece:
IRELAND WILL VOTE TWICE; BRITAIN WON'T VOTE AT ALL
This is becoming like the closing scenes of Terminator. However many times you kill the European Constitution, it keeps lurching to its feet again. Blam! Fifty-five per cent of French voters say "Non". Zap! Sixty-two per cent of Dutch voters say "Nee". But the automaton keeps advancing, its flesh burned away, its charred metal skeleton stamped with the words "Lisbon Treaty". Then - pow! - 53 per cent of Irish voters vote "No". The machine is briefly swallowed by orange flames. But, after a short lull, the red lights go on in its skull and, once again, it starts clawing its way forward.
Shortly before Ireland voted, the president of the European Commission, José Manuel Durrão Barroso, warned electors that there was no Plan B. Irish commentators innocently took this to mean that, if the treaty was rejected, it would be dropped. What Barroso in fact meant, as is now clear, is that Plan A would be resubmitted over and over again.
This is how EU leaders invariably behave after a "No" vote. They machine-gun out a couple of platitudes about listening to the people, then carry on regardless. For them, public opinion is an obstacle to tear aside, not a reason to change direction.
Their desire for a second Irish referendum next autumn isn't really to do with voting weights or numbers of commissioners or extensions of majority voting. Many of the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty can be - indeed, have been - implemented in anticipation of formal ratification. For example, the European elections on June 4 will be fought on the basis of the number of MEPs that would have been authorised by Lisbon, not the ones provided for by the current treaties.
No, this is about keeping the project going - a project from which millions now earn their living. The EU employs more than 170,000 officials, on handsome and largely untaxed retainers. And for every formal Eurocrat there are dozens of fellow travellers: the Europe officers retained by every charity, local council, large corporation and NGO. Their salaries might not be paid directly by Brussels but their livelihoods depend on the process of integration.
For Euro-hirelings, Lisbon isn't about federalism or democracy; it's about mortgages and school fees. They realise, to borrow their favourite simile, that the EU is like a bicycle that will fall over if it stops moving. And so they have convinced themselves that voters are suffering from what Engels called "false consciousness": that they secretly want their leaders to disregard their votes and push ahead with deeper integration.
If you think I exaggerate, consider these words, spoken to the Czech President last week by Brian Crowley, leader of Ireland's governing party, Fianna Fáil, in the European Parliament: "All his life my father fought against the British domination. Many of my relatives lost their lives. That is why I dare to say that the Irish wish for the Lisbon Treaty."
Set aside the anti-Britishness: Europhiles can be xenophobic when it suits them. Disregard the curious way in which Crowley equates his father's campaign for national independence with his campaign against it. Ignore, too, the anachronism: since Crowley's father was born 13 years after independence, he can hardly have spent his life fighting "the British domination". Focus, instead, on the extraordinary presumption: "the Irish wish for the Lisbon Treaty". So much for the referendum result. Crowley believes he knows the voters' desires better than they do.
A long passgae I know, but worth reading.
Be part of Europe if we must, but not ruled by it.
Roger
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
19 December 2008
10:1211197Roger
Of course it matters who wrote the piece.
A Tory MEP
one that is quite happy to b part of gravy train and claim big expenses that he is so against.
so it does matter.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,695
19 December 2008
10:3411201I share a degree of Keith's scepticism for the same reasons.
Having said that, I am concerned that
a) The EU establishment believe themselves to know better than the electorate
b) That the French and Germans feel they have the right to threaten the Irish in order to get them to agree to another referendum
c) That our government cannot see that the Lisbon Treaty further reinforces the Franco-German stranglehold on the EU
d) The treaty does nothing to reform the CAP which rewards inefficiency and ineptitude
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,695
19 December 2008
10:3911203Oh by the by I am very much a europhile and believe that the future of the UK and its European neighbours is through closer co-operation and working together
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
19 December 2008
11:0711211I too am in favour of close co-operation with European nations and working together but we would be better off out of the EU.
Keith again does not address issues but chooses instead to make a personal assault on a MEP who has made a stand against the excesses of the EU and its gravy train.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
19 December 2008
16:5011234talking to a few continentals over the weekend and not a mention of the treaty have posed a new way of looking at the whole idea as a union to work together as one and to strenthn euorpes standing in the wider outlook in trade and resourses.this is from people who intaly said no,but having read and digested the whole thing have changed there minds.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
19 December 2008
18:2711247Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
19 December 2008
18:5011249I had a newsletter through from Richard Ashworth our MEP (for the South east) today.
This is what he says on the subject:
""""Euro
I'm not sorry that Peter Mandelson brought up the issue of the UK joining the euro in response to the global credit crunch. In doing so the recently returned cabinet minister has given a clear indication of the intent of the next Labour government (should they be elected).
To my mind, a time of crisis, such as the one we are currently enduring, does not provide the reason for joining the euro but rather, it provides the reason not doing so.
History tells us that legislation forged in a crisis almost always provides the wrong changes for the wrong reasons. In fact, looking back to the last economic crisis following Black Wednesday, it was the ability to fix our own interest rates coupled with the weakness of our currency that enabled the UK to make such a strong recovery. It is to be hoped those lessons have not been forgotten.""""
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,695
19 December 2008
19:4411254This seems a straight lift from an article in the Daily Telegraph on Monday
Most of my Dutch, Belgian, French, German and Spanish friends tell me that they have not read the text of the Lisbon Treaty and have relied on the debates on television and in their newspapers to inform them; having said that almost all of them are concerned at the direction the proposed treaty is heading. Having said that they also struggle to understand the level of antipathy shown by British eurosceptics towards the EU in general, as they overall consider the EU to be a positive and wish to continue to work towards greater co-operation etc.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
19 December 2008
23:5911259What I would like it to see the MEP's like those Barry's quotes not taking the big allowances(gravy train) or am i incorrect and the conservative MEP's dont take the large amounts of dosh on offer?
Sid Pollitt
20 December 2008
00:0611262I think you are right Keith, they are so critical of the gravy train that they dont take any money at all in principle.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
20 December 2008
00:0711263how about we find out just how much they dont take each year?
conservatives?principles?
20 December 2008
08:2311276However much the MEPs slink off with, it is appalling that the Irish may be forced to vote again because Brussels didn't like their first vote. Absolutely there should be reviews and referendums later, that is acceptable, as circumstances change and develop we may change our views, but to hold another so soon clearly indicates that it not a response to change but a means of bullying a nation into changing its vote. It is a clear indicator of the assumed power of Brussels and its potential to use it regardless of what we want.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
20 December 2008
11:0411284You are right Bern.
Ross - Dan Hannen writes for the Telegraph so it may have been his article there in the first place.
Keith and Sid - We have been through this before. these MEP's are elected to represent the public and should take what is properly due to them in their position. You may not like it the Eurosceptic get elected to the European Parliament, tough. They are and are doing a good job there fighting the worse excesses of the Euro fanatics.
At least they did not vote to prevent people from working more than 48 hours. Labour MEPs did and di so in defiance of even the Labour Government.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
20 December 2008
16:4811289The Irish should tell the rest of the EU to get stuffed.One referendum is enough.
Or maybe I was mistaken and it was the best of three!.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
20 December 2008
16:4811290marek mines a pint of stella atois with a guiness chaser
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
20 December 2008
16:5111293Mines a pint of anything and a good woman chasing!!
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
20 December 2008
16:5211294as was the case last night.
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
20 December 2008
17:1011296Marek you can have my pint,I will have the good woman chasing,talking of which did you find your lovely mrs.
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
20 December 2008
17:4511299the whole point is that the irish public said no and the powers that be will stamp their feet and hold their breath until they turn blue, or the irish public make the "correct" decision.
maybe we should do this with general elections?
just as ridiculous really.
marek makes the point about 2 out of 3, the whole thing reminds me of the coin toss in the school playground.
best out of 3, lost again best out of 5 and so on.
