Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
I heard this info on Radio 4 business news this morning. As mentioned in the headline..pubs closing at the rate of 4 a day. So bad news for the pub goer, as before too long on current trends there will be few left.
The reason given by landlords is ( errmmmm apart from having no customers!
)...
1. The smoking ban
2. Rising costs.............
and 3. probably the biggest pubkiller of all
Supercheap Supermarket Beer.
So whats to be done? Well it is much the same as everything else, use it or lose it. If you value your local pub get on down there perhaps a bit more often. But ask yourself this, apart from sentiment, how much have you actuallly spent in your 'local' last week?...or were you in one of those national chains like Wetherspoons (tut tut!).
Just come back to add this bit below...
Saw an interesting little bit in saturdays Daily Mail, although I must admit I havent read it thoroughly..just a glance..but the headline screamed that despite the rises in alcohol tax in the recent Budget, the price of Supermarket Beer went down even lower...so fathom that one!!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
I noticed that report about supermarket beer. It shows what a blunt tool tax is, as it is the pubs that will be hurt most by the increased alcohol taxes. It would have been far better to make a more imaginative approach targeting the poison of choice for the binge drinkers such as alcopops and strong lagers. real ales could be left alone because they are more expensive than cheap chemical beer anyway, real ale drinkers tend to be older and more responsible in attitude than the teenage bingers. It would be possible also to place additional levies on alcohol sold for 'outside consumption'.
Pubs are suffering primarily as a result of the economic downturn. If you are having to tighten your belt then what is the first 'spend' to be cut?
Dave
The Radio4 programme is quite correct,you only have to look at Dover, The Hare & Hounds, The Crown & Sceptre, The Prince of Orange and the Royal Oak, Whitfield all closed. Many of those remaining are on the market awaiting new tenants.
There are a number of reasons for all these closures by far the major factor has been the smoking ban, the Government's argument was that those who didn't smoke would again start frequenting pubs, that simply did not happen, the opposite occurred the smokers started drinking at home and the non-smokers remained at home. Town centre pubs were not affected as much but the community pub bore the brunt of the ban especially those who had no facilities for outside smoking shelters.
Cheap supermarket beer has been with us for a long time and although its effects upon the trade were to a certain extent minimal the smoking ban was catastrophic.
Binge drinking takes place generally at weekends when youngsters go out for a good time. They tend to frequent places like Wetherspoons who sell their products cheaper than the average independent licensee can buy it for.
The pub companies themselves charge excessive rents £400 - £500 per week is not unusual for a medium sized pub. Couple this to other costs such as light & heating ,repairs, renewals and the monstrous business rate and it is not difficult to work out why so many once thriving houses are closing.
We now have the situation where we walk up the High Street with the smokers congregated outside, flicking their cigarette ends and using the sort of language which is offensive to a lot of people.
I should be quite interested to here the opinion of others regarding this issue.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
It is an interesting one Dave. Perhaps the reason is not just one factor but a combination.
I am certainly one non-smoker that has returned to pubs. The smoking ban would always have an initial impact on pubs, no doubt, but over the long term they would 'bounce' back as people got used to it. Experience in New York and Ireland I believe will demonstrate that. Unfortunately the slowdown has exacerbated that impact and then at just the worse time we get a tax rise...
The smoking ban is spreading everywhere Europe, even to France and Spain so our pubs are not unique. The proportion of smokers in Spain is much higher than here.
Perhaps the solution to the problems of smokers and pubs lies elsewhere.... A 'cigarette' that does not produce smoke but gives the full smoking impact to the user is the answer that is also legal to 'smoke' in pubs etc... There is such a thing as some of you know but I cannot and will not say anything more about that right now. But, if someone has £3million to spare let me know and I will tell you all....
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
I agree with everyone,not that I am always in the pub,last weekend though I was out celebrating my daughters 21st in one of the noisest/busiest pubs in the town centre,it was busy,in fact it was manic,but they can not cope with the big chain Pubs,like w*th**sp**ns,where they buy booze at prices that are so cheap,along with the smoking ban etc,but youngsters still have money to burn,look at the pubs that have gone in Dover,they are not known as youngsters pubs.
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
The reduction in standard pubs is simply part of the development of society. People are always finding new ways to amuse themselves and meet socially - as a non-smoker I did visit pubs a little more after the smoking ban as I had enjoyed them when I was younger, but the enjoyment had diminished a bit, inexplicably - I should have still enjoyed it because the only reason I stopped going, years ago, was the smoke, but I guess my social habits have morphed with age - I prefer home comfort and close friends whose conversation I can hear and drinks I can afford and enjoy!!! We will inevitably develop new watering holes whether they are bars, clubs, pubs, cafes ot whatever, and I will not mourn the passing of those "pubs" where the aim is to sell booze cheap and expect the police to clear up the detritus that collapses vomitting on the streets later. I spent some time in Paris when I was young and it was so different.....bars that sold coffee and decent food as well as alcohol, alcohol viewed as part of the diet rather than an end in itself and often used to assist digestion, or to promote conversation. A pleasant and dare I say civilised experience.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Nothing new - just look at the number of pubs in Dover at the turn of the 1900's..... you would have died from alcohol poisoning if you took just a sip at each one when you went through the harbour and town
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 654- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 169
Dave
just 1 small point and what you say is correct, but I do live close to the Crown and sceptre, and Its still open,
and very popular.
Dave
Keef, thank you for that and my apologies to whoever runs The Crown & Sceptre I think I probably meant the Orange Tree which has been derelict for some time.
Turning to one or two of the points raised not everybody wants to drink in a pub full of youngsters it's nice to have mature company at times and this was more prevalent in the community pub the very sort that are under threat.
It is probably true that people will adjust themselves and get used to the smoking ban but how many licensees are going to be able to continue until that day happens.
The binge drinking emanates from those establishments who sell booze deliberately priced to attract the younger element and pack them in to the point that they don't know how much their customers have consumed and don't really care providing that no trouble breaks out on their premises.
Guest 654- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 169
Dave
no probs,
Your right about this present climate.
I\could never understand the logic behind telling clubs/pubs they could open 24 hours and then moan cos drunken people were causing a problem.
On the smoking ban, im all for it with better planning, but just putting smokers out on the doorstep hasn't helped
it just intimidates some people when they have to pass this crowd of people who are probably all ok but its perception.
pub prices deter many people from going to these establishments,
any many other things sadl.y like SKY TV play stations(yes adults use them!)
and much much more
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Dave, you are right about 'community pubs'. Bern I too hate the loud 'mass market' pubs that cater for the young. There is at least one good 'community pub' in Dover with a more mature clientele where you can always get into conversation with no pounding music or tv.
It is just these community pubs where the more expensive real ales are more likely to be sold as a higher proportion of turnover, so if as I would suggest you focussed extra tax on the cheap mass market chemical beers, alcopops and so on these would be in a better position.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
scorchie
i was told when i first moved here that there were 365 pubs in dover at the turn of the 20th century
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
According to "By the Way" it was about 200 around 1900, by 1990 there were 48.
Wonder how many now......
Been nice knowing you :)
Dave
I think you'll find Scotchie that there are roughly 30 left, one of which is managed for Weatherspoons, roughly 5 are freehouses and the rest are leased or tenanted from the major pub co's such as Punch, Admiral, Shepherd-Neame, although they are rented from the brewery, and Enterprise Inns.
