In or out, or partly out or all out?....
20 November 2012
...what should be the question?
...what should be the question?
The EU is a problem that will not go away.
UKIP want an In/Out referendum. Fair enough but an awful lot will be resting on that single throw of the dice. We cannot be sure that common sense will prevail and the public will vote 'out' and in that referendum, if lost, we will be condemned to remaining in that dreadful organisation forever more locked into their drive for 'ever greater union'. An In/Out vote offers only a choice between the status quo and a leap in the dark. It would be a gift to the Eurofanatics as they can go in for all kinds of scare stories, aided and abetted by their quisling friends in the BBC. Such a scare campaign would work.
David Davis MP has another, new idea. One that will work and will not result in that risky throw of the dice. A two stage referendum, stage one - a mandate vote, asking the public for a mandate to renegotiate for a straight trade deal as was originally envisaged. The second stage is a 'decision vote' it would be to accept such a trade deal or get out of the EU all together. He is saying the government should legislate now for such a process.
See more about his idea here:http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2012/11/david-daviss-partly-outwholly-out-eu-referendum.html
This is the best and most original thinking on how to solve our EU problem I have seen. How I wish I had voted for him in the leadership elections, I know many other Conservatives are thinking the same now....
- PaulB - There is a bigger consumer market outside the EU and exiting the EU will not close the doors to trade with them. Some, I repeat, some of the 'big business' CBI prefer the easy status-quo. The Institute of Directors take a different view.
There must be no sleep walking towards exit - we must exit with our eyes open and with a new vision for the future.
As for DC, he has a problem being in coalition with Eurofanatics. The decision is not entirely with him anyway, the pressures are becoming intense within the Party and he cannot resist them forever just to placate the LDs. - The only way forward is for the Political Partys of the UK to admit they have got Europe wrong all along.
Therefore there is no way for them to go forward at all. The shift from one Cast Iron referendum promise to the option of two shows just how detached from reality they are.
I am all for 'the vision thing', but I have yet to see the merest sign of it.
There is very little 'present', some 'near future' and a great deal of 'the long term', but no 'past' to speak of, for the majority of voters have known no other way than being within the EU. Which of us that have lived in that far off land of pre-EU bliss would dare to argue it's new attractiveness?
What is it, that has been driving the EU along this, it's present path? What was it that insisted on us signing dreadful treaty after treaty, and drove the Irish and others to keep at their public-browbeating to 'achieve' the necessary YES vote?
And do things look as rosy now as it was assumed they would? I very much doubt it.
It may well be time to raise this present citadel to the ground and build anew, but if we again find ourselves in the audience and not upon the stage of this new production we will have learned nothing.
Let us not mill about the car park, placard in hand, insisting on a costume change. Let us form a vision, in concert with our fellow members, of what a renewed EU could be and could do for us all. - how about a plain and simple free trade area tom, i think that would be popular with most european people's tom?
we are not the only ones fed up of being told what to do with a faceless bureaucracy. - Howard, you use these words;plain, simple, free, as if for the first time. Your Lexicon must be the Dictionary of the ill-defined.
What is not plain and simple of our obedience of EU edicts? What could be simpler and more plain than what we do now?
And 'free', does that word carry any more significance than 'fair'?
You had a free and fair election only last week. The Electorate each took their own simple and plain view of it:Their best guess, their prejudices at work, their stab in the dark and their stay away - action inaction, or should that be inaction in action?
Alas the, undoubted, faceless bureaucracy is encircled, as our own Parliament is, with lobbyists and pressure groups. Doing away with this faceless bureaucracy would certainly increase the pressure and the spending power of these groups, who meet faceless-to-faceless, to concentrate upon National charlatans, oops!, I mean Parliamentarians.
The military hook-ups might be retained too, but the EU Embassies could go.
What is missing, and has been missing since the get-go, is the exchange of ideas peoples-to-peoples. This is something which could grow through the commonality of cuts and general disquiet. - Hold on - this is not about another 'cast iron'' referendum promise. DD is saying that will not wash with the electorate so instead he is saying that there needs to be legislation for the dual referendum before the next election.
- So it's R2 from D2?
Barry, are you saying there will be two referendums before the next election or is the next election to be fought on the grounds that there will or wont be two referendums after that election?
I don't quite see how establishing something that will be non-binding after an election is any better than a 'cross-my-heart' promise.
Legislation for and then R1 and R2 before the next election will leave little time for anything else, what if nobody turns up again?
Perhaps it is best all round for you Blues to get your own act together. This is not yet a conversation to be had between Partys, let alone with the Electorate. - Read what I said Tom.
Legislation is binding, that is why merely an election promise is not enough.
He said legislation for the two referenda, not holding them before the election. There are practicalities involved. The first referendum will be to provide a mandate for negotiation which will strengthen the hand of the UK negotiators. After a negotiation there is the decision referendum in which we accept the result of the negotiation or get out of the EU. - I read, " there needs to be legislation for the dual referendum before the next election." hence the confusion.
I doubt whether legislation is binding. Any Party can promote their alternative approach in the run-up to the next election and have the election vote as their first step to implementing their approach to the EU.
When it comes down to it, any other Party can promise to cut public spending by half a billion pounds, just by dumping the R2D2 stance. - Tom - legislation will be needed to overturn legislation, it is not so easy to avoid a referenda if it is already legislated for. I do not think any Party would take the flak over that, it would be far too blatant and opportunist, no room for weasel words.
Incidentally - half a billion - peanuts in the context of the deficit that must be reduced, far less than would be saved by quitting the EU or renegotiation opting out of all but a free trade deal. - Barry's obsession - Europe and telling people they know nothing about economics. Got it wrong on Cameron and gets it equally wrong by believing that David Davies has the answer.
- Barry, currently UKIP supporters are equivalent in number to one quarter/one third of Tory supporters. Without an agreement with UKIP, as things stand now, the Tory party won't be in the next government.
The longer the Conservatives dither on this issue of EU membership and an in/out referendum, the more they will lose support.
UKIP does not leave any option open to any form of EU membership.
Sooner or later, the Conservatives will either have to accept an in/out referendum, or accept they will be in the opposition after the next GE.
This is fact, Barry, rational strategic thinking. - Delusional as always Alexander.
You certainly have no answers Philip - windmills to you!!! - Barry, two thirds of Tory members want an alliance with UKIP!
Are you out of touch with Conservative grassroots' demands and aspirations?
Many supporters of your party say they are prepared to vote for UKIP if the Conservative leadership continue denying us a referendum - in/out - on the EU. - Having been involved in politics since 1973 I have seen polls come and go, I have a realistic ideas of what they mean, unlike you. It seems to me Alexander that you are determined on a course that would lock the UK into the EU forever. Thankfully there are saner voices in charge.
- Barry, forever means Eternity. Britain won't be in the EU forever.
Ed Miliband does not want to see us sleep walking towards the exit...so he seems to be, although its all a bit bewildering, seems to be in the same place as the PM.
I also heard some of the David Davies speech. Interesting in theory but would it ever happen in reality..its too long winded and complicated...the public dont do complicated at the ballot box! The recent election for the PCC saw the lowest turnout of voters in history and the election cost £100,000,000 to hold. A hundred million..strewth! So I am calculating therefore that the David Davies option would cost twice that..that puts a big darn hole in the national wallet and gives nothing productive in return.