Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
I do not mind you saying that Barry, work in the real world,I would say I have done alot of that over my 67years. I am not looking for any scapegoats, just that is how I see Dover and it leaders at this time.
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
John, it's probably because it makes ASDA sound like a greedy, uncaring profit-obsessed multinational. Which of course it is.
To hell with Chavsda.
I trust every self respecting Dovorian will now avoid their other shops as a matter of principle.
Let's not forget they strung us along for over ten years and have now jeopardised the whole project.
Asda
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,698
Vic I very much doubt that I think like you, but never mind eh...
This is not about scapegoats (for me anyway) the current mob at at Whitfield are just the latest in a long line of people presiding over 40 plus years of stagnation for this town, the whole sorry lot of them have shown little or no imagination or gumption in getting things done to make Dover better. Frankly, we deserve better.
Yes we need to take Asda walking away with a bit of a stiff upper lip, but as Barry reminds us and many of us have said all along, they were the only option that we were told about and a frankly inappropriate one at that. Now we have the chance to move forward with a better scheme and more appropriate tenants, lets hope the DDC grasp this opportunity with both hands.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,023
I support that
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
ross
nearer 50 years i think.
every bombed town or inner city in this country has been built on, then built on again since.
how many MP's and councils has dover has since then ?
it is no good for people to talk about the recession now, right through the good times when grant cash was washing around everywhere, nothing came our way.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
This particular scheme started around 2002; I know there were other ideas before that, but don't know what they were.
I know it may sound like I'm banging a DDC drum, but it isn't the fault of the Officers or Councillors that ASDA have pulled out. It is ASDA's.
This scheme has taken so many years, due, in the main, to having so many different landlords/landowners and none of them playing ball, holding out for better prices.
They knew about all the other developments that were going on for the regeneration of the Town, Harbour and terminal 2, but presumably felt that Morrisons competition would be too great.
I hope the void can be filled soon.
Roger
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
DDC started pulling the scheme together in 1983, when it was thought to be a 20 year project due to the complex web of leases and underleases, along with land ownership issues. I was on the Land Committee that year when we went and had a look at the site and made the decision.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
I understood that this present one with ASDA, started around 2002, ASDA weren't even in the UK in the 1980s, so it must have been a different scheme.
Roger
Guest 684- Registered: 26 Feb 2009
- Posts: 635
ASDA were in the UK before the 1980s, Roger. I remember going in an ASDA in Birmingham in 1975.
1975...correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that around the same time they erected the "Regeneration for Dover - Coming Soon..." hoardings in Townwall Street, which are now a UNESCO World Heritage site in their own right.
Yes, 1975, the year before the poor old Crypt burnt down, aka that 34-year-old gap in Bench Street, to any of you more recent arrivals to my poor beleaguered, abused and vandalised home town.
Anyway, chins up and here's to 2035, people, and the arrival of Monaco-on-Dour. Bellinis all round in the T2 Marina bars, anyone?!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Roger - no Asda and what would be included in the scheme were nothing to do with the 1983 decision. Long before you could get to that stage you had to get the land holdings aligned, or well on the way to being aligned. Just doing that was a 20 year job due to the leases/underleases. DDC did not wait for all of the land issues to all be resolved, to their credit, before moving the scheme forward and there remains, clearly, some land holding issues now. Of course, the exact boundaries of the scheme were not set in stone in 1983 and were quite fluid.
I for one am NOT sorry Asda has gone as you would expect . I gave an example of what Dover needs at the beginning of this saga and now is the time to be more positive and move forward with plan B as Ross said. On the plus side landholdings and studies have been done so if a simpler plan is drawn up - not encumbered by this LEAD Developer theory - it could all get on course for what is really wanted quite quickly. I have small clients who would invest right now in a better, more imaginative development.
I used ASDA at South Woodham Ferrers back in the early '80's Roger, so they were in country at that time.
Now, with all this mud flying around I'm finding myself very confused when trying to establish who is responsible for the current DTIZ shambles. DDC has been working on DTIZ for about 20 years or so, and then someone allows Morrisons to open a store very close to a key development, and also, literally within spitting distance of Netto.
Didn't anyone think, "hey, won't this cause a problem!"?
Who, in their right mind would seriously think a small, hard-up town like Dover would want/need to have Tesco/Netto/Aldi/Co-Op/Somerfield/Asda/Spar/Morrisons, all within relatively easy reach of each other. You've got to say, given the lack of other amenities in the town, that it smacks either of laziness somewhere, or, simple abysmal town planning.
I would also like to know the Chamber of Trade view of events as surely they were consulted about this development. I hope not actually because it would be a staggering confession for professional businessmen/women to have missed the blatant over-saturation of our town in supermarkets. They would surely have seen something has to give and strongly advised against yet another supermarket. Or were they blinded by the prospect of something actually happening in Dover that they just nodded complicitly?
There is so much more I would like to say on this subject, but I will stop here for the moment.
Nevertheless, I am happy we've got Morrisons even though I won't ever use their store and delighted that prime site in our town is to be given a second chance of actually housing something that will attract visitors rather than local shoppers. Maybe this is the site for the Dover Spinnaker Tower?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Sid - the Morrisons development is on land zoned for shopping and there would be no legal planning grounds for refusal. DDC, if they tried to refuse would have lost on appeal and would have had a great deal of criticism for doing so. No win situation for them.
You might also consider the principal of 'a bird in the hand' - imagine if by some fluke the Council were able to prevent Morrison's to protect the Asda development (ignoring potential scandal) and then Asda still decided not to go ahead....
The Chamber of Commerce (not Trade in Dover) generally support business development in the District, as we should, along with the jobs they deliver. Commercial considerations for investors are a matter for them and not for us and certainly not the Council to second guess.
Barry I genuinely think any appeal would have failed on the grounds that Netto were already on that site and operational. Pure common sense would rule against two supermarkets in such close proximity.
I accept your point about commercial considerations, however I would suggest the CoC can help influence those considerations by presentiing an image of a town on the cusp of being a thriving, have to be in, place for business. However, the Dover CoC has been far too reserved for the good of Dover for too long.
This is the time for us to tke a very long hard look at all the bodies representing our town and challenge their role in its future. Dover voters are desperate for a united front, all parties working to a common goal, no political footballing, just sheer drive and determination across the board to deliver the right solutions for the town.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Sid - Netto's proximity is not a planning matter that justifies a refusal. That is a commercial matter. Planning refusals have to have very specific planning grounds.
You need to catch up a bit about the Chamber, lots of changes while you were away. Its under new management and is now involved in Dover town centre.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
just a small note about asda, don't forget they were under their original name of associated dairies for many years before expanding into the supermarket game.
Hmm, Howard, so they moved from milking cows to milking human kind! Evolution is a wonderful thing.
Barry, point taken; will need to do some homework obviously.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
Sid, they only want the cream.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
While at times I may be critical of DDC, I have a certain amount of sympathy for them on this occasion.
Caught between the rock of a stalling multinational and the hard place of numerous recalcitrant landowners, this part of the scheme finally founders.
Somehow or other a way has to be found to get the site totally cleared (anyone know who the self-interested scheme-spoiler is who owns the top floor of B House)? Let's name and shame.
DDC just have to rise to the occasion and do whatever it takes. Just do it.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
The only way that the site can get cleared will be with commercial money, I am sure they (like other councils) don't have a few millions lying around for the purchase of the land, demolitions, etc. I am sure this will be part of Asda's financial reasoning that they could put up a cheap shed at the cost it would have taken to clear the site......
Been nice knowing you :)