Captain Haddock
- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,848
I have always been an opponent of the state executing people (reports of execution by injection from the USA make gruesome reading with difficulty of finding veins and the executed taking far too long to expire) and also found the reports of the recent use of a 'suicide pod', leading to Florian Willet, president of the Last Resort, being in custody for over a month while prosecutors determine if he had ‘selfish’ motives amid ‘strangulation mark’ claims (did she 'go gentle into that good night' or was she 'raging'?), rather worrying.
Writing in the Spectator this week the blessed Charles Moore puts forward a modest proposal which I have copied below.
[I]My young friend Dr Cajetan Skowkronski has helped me resolve a question that has been worrying me.
Why do supporters of ‘assisted dying’ insist that the best method is a cocktail of pills (or intravenous injection)? Their prescription has an air of medical respectability, but this is not a medical process. The sole aim in assisting suicide is to achieve the quickest, least painful death.
In a Twitter thread of Swiftian brilliance, Dr Skowkronski has the answer: ‘At the height of the French Revolution,’ he writes, ‘when large volumes of Assisted Deaths were taking place for the sake of noble aims, a compassionate physician, Dr Guillotin, felt that many of the prevailing methods were cruel. [He] therefore proposed the use of an accurate and immediate method which spares the “patients” so many of the regrettable sufferings associated with other therapeutic options such as hanging, shooting, axing, burning or dismemberment.’ After ‘extensive trials’ in France, this ‘was adopted in many progressive countries’.
Dr S feels that ‘As a 21st-century physician motivated by the same compassion… I see that prevailing “best practice” in jurisdictions where euthanasia is legal [is] inhumane, slow, and carries unacceptable complication rates’. He therefore urges that advocates of assisted dying be trained in ‘operating portable, modern guillotines to give their patients the very best care with instant effect’.
Obviously, ‘Guillotine stigma is a hurdle we must overcome…But think about the stigma we have already overcome by reframing Doctors Killing Patients as an act of compassion which we now call Assisted Dying.
Let’s execute change, together.’
Charles Moore[/I]
FWIW, an interesting article here
https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2024/10/30/philip-murray-looking-down-the-slippery-slope-can-assisted-suicide-be-restricted-to-the-terminally-ill/"Shall we go, you and I, while we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds"
Arthur- Registered: 18 Nov 2020
- Posts: 425
Thank you- second article is very long but definitely worth reading. I am fearful of the proposed bill.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,782
Medical science has progressed, which in 99% of cases is a good thing, but that means we now live so much longer than our bodies sometimes allow. Our quality of life is seldom taken into account when medical intervention and life giving treatment is available.
Pure existence is by no means the same as living a full and happy life. When I was very ill I told the medics D N R as the quality of the kind of life that I want has now gone. As you might have gathered I am in favour of assisted dying but with very strict guidelines.
BTW I am not suicidal or depressed, just honest about how I believe we have the right to choose when our time has come and should not be kept alive just because medics have the ability to do so.
Reginald Barrington and Matey like this
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,821
My mum was clear in her intentions on DNR
Although three times she was strong enough to pull back through !
But she was in severe pain on top dose of morphine , wanting to go ,
It was an awful time
Not easy decisions
Doctors even questioned her decision as they are live savers
But her wish in sound mind and clear as much as I didn't want to lose her , was her wish
Jan Higgins and Matey like this
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,848
FWIW, just spoke to Mike Tapp on subject and have follwed up with e-mail :-
Hi Mike,
Thanks for taking the time to quickly discuss the above.
PLEASE READ Phillip Murray's article on the 'slippery slope' here :-
https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2024/10/30/philip-murray-looking-down-the-slippery-slope-can-assisted-suicide-be-restricted-to-the-terminally-ill/
I am sure you will vote 'with your conscience' and merely hope that your conscience will lead you to oppose the proposed Bill.
Having been with my mother when she died I am reminded of the couplet by 19th century Poet Arthur Hugh Clough
' Thou shalt not kill; but need'st not strive Officiously to keep alive.'
which sums up the status quo and whilst not perfect in law seems to give most a reasonable send off without encouraging another Harold Shipman!
Best Wishes
Captain Haddock
Arthur likes this
"Shall we go, you and I, while we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds"
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,821
I do think this is a difficult one seeing my mum in pain and her wishes ,
The problem also is as you age some GPs have less time for you , probably watching budgets .
That's another sad fact of life .
So it is a real problem .
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,782
At times I wonder how hard some (I repeat some) GPs work because they seem to rely on others to see their patients.
I now seem to be in the care of a telephone pharmacist and community nurses, apart from my hospital stays (about 18 months ago) have not seen a real living doctor for well over 5yrs.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,848
I wondered why all my clildren were in favour!
'After Assisted Dying is legalised: Doris, who is frail, and owns her 4 bedroom house, starts to be visited by her nephew, Sam, who hadn't taken much interest in her before.
She likes his visits as he is suddenly very kind to her. He praises her for living independently, and often mentions how awful it would be if she had to go into a care home. He never mentions that the cost of care concerns him.
He always talks about the "indignity" of care homes and how he thinks people must suffer terribly there, looked after by strangers who don't love them.
When she develops pneumonia and has a fall, she goes to hospital. Sam visits often and says how sad it is that she is so dependent on others now. The pneumonia is treated but the doctors think she is too frail to return home to live alone now.
Sam asks Doris if she can bear the idea of living in a care home, he reminds her of the awful stories he has heard of how badly people are treated in care homes.
"I just worry about your quality of life Aunty Dot. If only there was a way you wouldn't have to go through that indignity after such an independent life."
He never mentions Assisted Dying. Doris asks the doctors about it herself, and they agree that she is frail enough that her life expectancy might be less than a year.
At her request, she is given a lethal cocktail of pills which she struggles to swallow, and Sam holds her hand supportively for the three hours it takes for her to die. The staff comment on what a devoted nephew he is.
Sam pays off his mortgage and retires early with the inheritance from Doris's estate. Not a penny was wasted on care homes.
He feels he earned it.'
Arthur likes this
"Shall we go, you and I, while we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds"
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,848
'Mabel is too frail to return home from hospital, but has no acute medical problem after her UTI was treated for 3 days. She has been sitting in a hospital bed for 5 weeks waiting for a care home placement. She feels awful about taking up a bed.
The hospital is under immense and all too familiar pressures, just like in 2024. Patients line corridors. Ambulances queue for hours to offload patients to A&E. Every bed is precious.
But there are so many Mabels.
After the third discharge plan for Mabel has failed, a manager asks the ward doctor: "How frail is Mabel? Is she in the last 6 months of life?"
"Possibly..."
"Has anyone spoken to her about all her options?"
"What do you mean?"
"Well, has anyone asked if she is suffering unbearably? It's important she knows all the options open to her. It's important she has real choice."
That's how this will go.
Little conversations like this.
Throughout the NHS.
For every Mabel.'
Matey, Reginald Barrington and Arthur like this
"Shall we go, you and I, while we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds"
Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,003
Good heavens, whatever happened to the Grandmas Giles, who have a spine of steel and financial acumen to match? Or do we envisage "charities" come cold-calling onto hospital wards?
(Not my real name.)
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,782
That little conversation might have taken place a long time before Mabel was bed blocking. Yet again there is an assumption Mabel does not really know her own mind and life must be lived for ever at all costs. Deep down she might not want to go in that care home to live a institutional kind of life and would prefer to peacefully slip away.
We are all individuals, while some want to live forever others do not. Maybe at an age to be decided us oldies should all get a suicide pill to use or not.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,821
As I said
My mum was quite clear in her intention
Was also clear no one should over rule her
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,848
Less than 3 weeks before it's due to be debated, Kim Leadbeater MP has finally published the text of her assisted suicide bill. It's 38 pages long, has 43 clauses and 6 schedules. MPs will have a maximum of five hours to debate it.
N.B. The Hunting Act was passed in 2004 after a Government Inquiry and 700 hours of parliamentary debate.
https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3774/publications"Shall we go, you and I, while we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds"
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,821
I'm still not convinced this is a good thing
Not enough safeguards in place
Arthur likes this
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,848
Arthur and Reginald Barrington like this
"Shall we go, you and I, while we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds"
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,782
No need to speculate on which side that article writer is supporting when words like 'killed' are used and no reference to why those children died. It is worth remembering doctors make life and death decisions every time they switch off life preserving machines, discontinue treatments or not prescribe certain medicines.
Button likes this
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Reginald Barrington
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,225
I suspect the children were terminally ill, but they did not die Jan they were killed.
Would you prefer put to sleep?
Arte et Marte
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,848
"Shall we go, you and I, while we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds"
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,782
A bit pointless even trying to continue this debate here or in parliament as I suspect both sides have already made up their minds how they would/will vote.
I sadly suspect the vote will be no. We will all have to continue living even if we wish to die in a peaceful way without committing suicide while we are still able.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,848
I'v always hoped to die in my sleep like my father ....................................
"Shall we go, you and I, while we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds"
Arthur and Reginald Barrington like this"Shall we go, you and I, while we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds"