howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
5 December 2009
22:2134425the "yougov" opinion poll in tomorrows sunday times will show that the blues have a 15 point lead(enough to govern with a clear majority at the next election) just one point down on a month ago.
our barry will no doubt be raising a glass to that, however the same poll found that when asked whether the blues were the party of the rich, 52% agreed 31% disagreed.
this suggests that the reds will be playing the loads of money card from now on.
the last time i remember the class issue being used to good effect was when john major used it to get one over on douglas hurd to get the no.10 job many moons ago.
6 December 2009
08:4334432Brown has fired a test salvo about the playing fields of Eton being the source of Tory policy already. I expect he will sit back for a while and see where it lands.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
6 December 2009
09:0034434There is "class" in Britain and always will be, but I don't think it affects the vast majority of our population at all.
Class is also a state of mind; some people believe they are middle class but have no money, but many neaveau-rich have loads of money but no class.
The vast majority of people don't give a toss about class, the vast majority of us (myself included) are all working class and proud of it.
Top Labour politicians mostly went to Oxford/Cambridge or some other quality university, so they are educated, a lot also send their children to grammar or private schools, so in many cases it is hypocritical to denigrate them as they do.
Many Conservatives were born and brought up on a Council estate or Council house and went to a Secondary Modern or Comprehensive school (myself included).
It doesn't matter where you come from, it's what you feel and think that matters; how you behave and what you aspire to.
I am comfortable where I am in life and my personal and political views.
Roger
6 December 2009
09:0934435This is a load of nonsense. Class is outdated and to resurrect the Toff v working class argument is ignoring the facts and taking us back into the dark ages.
Reality is that running the country and other area organisations is a complex and complicated business. We want to see the best educated and intelligent people at the top. Indeed I have met many government ministers of all parties and they are invariably good communicators and very clever.
Whatever you think of Eton or grammar or comprehensive the system sorts out those capabilities that we need.
We don't need to use the Pescott comparison - but what Dover and the country needs is intelligent leadership. I don't care where they got educated - thats why we have open university, but I have a great fear that in throwing out the MPs who have misbehaved we may get a downgraded quality.
Many people thing they are adequate and could do the job but that isnt true...
6 December 2009
09:1234436Class is indeed stalking our society, hiding behind the many aspirational lower middle classes, runnning the show from the backroom. "Class" however is different, and many people. as Roger can see, who have little in the way of material wealth have class by the bucket load. That "state of mind" thing is vividly true.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
6 December 2009
09:2834438As was pointed out vividly by a young student girl in the audience on the BBC's Question Time...who, although from elsewhere, was currently living in a rented council estate flat in North London with little money, and borrowed up to the hilt with burdoning government loans ( in fact an identical fit for my own daughter's situation)...what? she asked... have people like Zac Goldsmith got in common with her.
Zac Goldsmiths only qualification for his fast track to Tory power is that he is very very rich and grew up formulating policy on the playing fields of Eton. What other struggling life experiences does he have. Answer:none. He cannot possibly identify with the struggle people are going thru. He is, if you like, almost a different species.
We spoke about this Eton thing in Barrys Blog last week, only for the PM to use the same direction at PMQ a few days later. He clearly dips in here for his policy shifts, not having ever experienced the playing fields of Eton!
But as Howard points out above re the polls...it could be a goer for labour, so its an obvious ploy at this point.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
6 December 2009
09:4734440Inheritance Tax is very unlikely to affect most people currently residing on council estates or in rented accommodation.The subject of class was introduced by old DC by publicly stating the first thing on gaining power (when and if) would be to raise the bar allowing those already wealthy keep more of their pile...I wonder who are those likely to benefit?..... those on the playing fields of Eton or those on the tarmac playgrounds of Ebenezers Higginbottoms Comprehensive.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
6 December 2009
10:1634443Marek.... Inheritance Tax (IHT) affects the beneficiaries not the person who has the big house and investments. There are many people living themselves in very modest houses (yes some on Council estates) whos parents are living in much more valuable properties potentially liable to IHT. I speak from professional knowledge.
Of course David H is right, completely right, the class war attack is the last sad desperate throw of a loser.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
6 December 2009
10:5134449it worked for john major, he got the job over douglas hurd.
it will be very interesting how the reds play this, and whether they will gain from it.
a clear majority of the people still feel that the blues represent people with dosh more than those who don't, so who can blame the PM and his script writers from exploting it?
i think it was bern on another thread said something along the lines of "whoever plays the dirty game better deserves to win."
6 December 2009
11:0434451EEEEEEEEEEEK! No mention of "deserves", Howard!! Just that in order to achieve a best outcome one needs to be better than the other guy at playing the rules. The socialist in me thinks that is disgraceful, the businesswoman benefits from it. What to do?!
Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
6 December 2009
14:2834457Hmm.........I think Cllr Hannent is aspiring to ideals in his post. Fact remains, there is still a class system in the UK, although I believe Upper, Middle and Working class are outdated terms, perhaps to be replaced by Loaded, Surviving and Skint classes. Class is an attitude of mind, you either have class or you don't.......this sounds snobbish, but look at David Beckham - loaded beyond the dreams of most of us yet with all the class of a slug (the counsel for the prosecution cites that latest chavvy haircut of his).
I know plenty of people with class who are abjectly skint, and I think much more of them than I would a thousand Beckhams. Power to the people!
True friends stab you in the front.
6 December 2009
15:2934460Power to the people indeed!!!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
6 December 2009
19:2834481that is right about class not always being associated with loads of money, i said the same to posh barry the other day when he scrounged 70 pence off of me for a can of export strength lager.
to be fair, he always pays me back when he has unloaded all his "big issues".
quality people like that never renege on a debt of honour.
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
6 December 2009
19:333448370p for one can Howard,posh Barry must be cutting back!
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
6 December 2009
19:3834485usual problems john, the threat of inheritance tax coming up, insurance premiums on the louis 14th chandelier, trout food, upkeep of the beagles since the socialists banned fun country pursuits.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
6 December 2009
20:3134491Class and money are not intrinsic. Also Class, as a sense of decernment and class as a social position are in no way related.
However to deny their existance is purely ignorant. Outlook is inherent and to dispute this undermines the process of parenting. The outlook of the working class is significantly different to that of the aristocracy. Those that have, understand very little about being without and representation is defined by best taking the place of your outlook in another position, a reason why monarchy is thoroughly undemocratic.
Intelligence at all levels of class, however the very construct of class surpresses the mobility of this intelligence. This is the reason that Etonians hold a larger number of positons of power because we are bound by tradition, good stock breeds good stock, of course a lie. We tell people work hard and that intelligence is some kind of golden ticket to success, but again this is a lie. Some of the greater minds in the country working in academic institutes for 30k a year. The people making decisions are in fact those 'with' thus perpetuating the situation.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
6 December 2009
20:3534492I grew up on a council estate and I went to a grammar school, does this make me a floating voter?
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
6 December 2009
20:5534493i had a feeling you were grammar educated chris, the commas are always in the right place.
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
6 December 2009
21:2434495no a voating flotor
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
Guest 641- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 2,335
7 December 2009
18:0034536Unfortunately Howard, the chandelier had to go,took too many man hours to clean but I'm holding on to the Hepplewhite chest of drawers and the Sheraton bureau. :)