Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
13 November 2009
08:4432957Funny when labour lost bye elections, it was the end of labour even those won in labour safer areas.
last nite labour won the bye election easily and the tory vote was only 60 votes more than the BNP
and the SNP expected to shock but didnt
labour on way back
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
13 November 2009
08:4632958kieth,good result
.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
13 November 2009
09:0232966That seat was probably the safest Labour one in Scotland, so no surprises at all.
Roger
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
13 November 2009
09:1032971lets be clear Roger
clearly Tory won labour safe seat down the road
as did SNP more recently.
SNP expected a far better result and im sure tories would not have wanted to get just 60 more votes than BNP
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
13 November 2009
10:5932980Keith - I am sure this will please you but this is not only Scotland but also Glasgow, Conservatives are not even in contention. This was a win against the SNP and it has little or no relevance to the wider picture. Enjoy a rare victory while it lasts.
Amusing that Lib Dems came in 6th place....and they do tend to do relatively well in Scotland so that is an interesting outcome.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
14 November 2009
09:4533049Barryw
not quite what your pundits you keep quoting are saying
but there you go, expected nowt else from you.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
14 November 2009
09:5433051Thats me saying that, not pundits, though some are on making the same point today.
Dont tell me Keith that you disagree... Do you really think a by-election in Glasgow, with the SNP as the main contender who have the handicap of being in Government in Scotland, says anything about the broader UK picture?
Even you must realise the facts of what I say, hardly rocket science.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
14 November 2009
09:5633052Surely BarryW the question your party should be asking is 'Why when Labour are doing so badly in the polls are (to use your words) Conservatives are not even in contention. Is it the the Tories don't like the Jocks or could it be that the Scottish voter is more perceptive and discerning and realises that the Tories do not repersent the working man and therefore have no place in the blue collar area of Glasgow or Scotland.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
14 November 2009
10:0133054Thats an interesting viewpoint MAREK
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,023
14 November 2009
10:1633056Marek that is interesting .What do you class as working class ?.There are a lot of Tory voters who donot support Labour as they are fed up of working all hours to prop up all these people who live on benefits .There are the other kind of Labour supporters who hang on to power by keeping the underclasses down .Never trying to encourage people to be independant of the state .Daming down all the time .Would you call Tony Blair working class ???
The old Labour yes and I have respect for them .There are a lot of Tory voters from working class backgrounds who by hardgraft have sought to be well educated found employment and improved their lot .THey donot subcumb to the nanny state as preferred by Labour .
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
14 November 2009
10:2633057Marek - electoral realitiy is what I am referring to. Scotland has its own dynamics and will not be a major battleground for the Conservatives in the GE. Glasgow even less so.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
14 November 2009
10:5933064SUE
Think maggie attempted to smash any working class person
ALL parties wont touch the benefits issue, believe me sue if you think otherwise your joining barryws rose tinted glasses and i m sure thats not the case.
As iv said on here before Frank fields did have some options which he produced to blair but they never came to owt.
same as cameron(if he still leader) wont touch it either.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
14 November 2009
11:1733065Sue
GB Shaw defined working class as"party of the propertyless proletariat". I suppose I define WC as those who do manual labour or work for hourly wages rather than fixed annual salaries.Normally factory workers,farm labourers,miners and builders etc. But times are a changing and a recent survey showed that 57% of Brits still considered themselves to be working class even though they owned property had a salary and office job and sent their kids to University. But is this just inverted snobbery?. As John Lennon once sang 'Working Class Hero' maybe we all like to be considered a hero and WC.
Karl Marx...famous for his films Duck Soup and a Day at the Races..... said WC was those who had to sell their labour to survive,the antithesis of the borgeoisie in Marxs class analysis. In the survey mentioned above the 'lowest class' were considered to be those who have never worked or are long term unemployed or as you call them.."those who live on benefits.." Have you ever asked why they are on benefits and what caused them to end up that way?.
Or as you would say "propping up those on benefits" but your analysis of the labour party hanging on to power by keeping the underclasses down doesn't hold water as you go on to say a nanny state.You can't be a party that helps those on benefits to aspire and obtain employment and supports them through retraining programmes and apprenticeships and then claim that the 'labour party cling to power by keeping the underclasses down.Its exactly the opposite the Labour Party are trying to help the 'underclasses' its the Tories that will withdraw the benefits and scrap the back to work programmes and cut nursery places therefore ensuring that the underclasses always remain at the bottom of the pile with no hope of climbing out of the trap.
So Sue why do you think the Tories fare so badly in Scotland? and whats your definition of working class without the usual rhetoric of "in my day or I had to work 25 hours a day and get up 2 hours before I went to work then go to bed if you could call a box a bed" type quotations.
The Labour Party for all its mistakes is still the only party for the people and more than any other party recognises the difficulties that some sections of society have in getting on in life,securing employment or improving their educational demands for the less abled and those with learning difficulties without throwing them on to the scrap heap and referring to them as benefit scroungers.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
14 November 2009
11:4633069marek,so true its allways working class that get kicked into touch etc,with little or no hope of inproveing them selves.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
14 November 2009
16:2733103I'm sorry Marek, that's old fashioned nonsense; I can't believe you really meant any of that.
Roger
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
14 November 2009
18:3133111Agreed, Roger. all utter tosh.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
14 November 2009
19:4333119BarryW
A well researched and informative answer....haha."The Tories don't like it up 'em Capt Mainwaring..a bit of cold reasoning...".
I do hope your not going to abuse Keefy when he offers similar responses to your monologues Barry.
Send our Love to the family.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
14 November 2009
20:3333121barry has certainly never been working class.
only the posh say tosh.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
15 November 2009
09:1533130MAREK
It is this non acceptance that there is this big divide that doesn't help todays society.
Just to take MAREK's views a little further, Benifits is a big issue for all parties to grapple with.
There are those without doubt in any society that will play the system, but with these comes people for a number of reasons(and these can be very varied)have no option but to claim benefits.
I have been lucky enough to have employment most of my life, and had only 1 visit to the job centre.
But i'm aware of many people who would love to work but these many varied reasons stop them from doing so.
If theres any TOSH around its the belief that the conservative party will fight the corner of the corner of the working class(when they can't still accept there even is a working class!!!)
One small point salaried staff can also be working class, salaried doesnt mean your out of this working class climate, many salaried wages are poor.
But I iunderstand where Marek was coming from.
We face some tough decisions very soon,
At last DC has said he WILL make cuts immdiatly should he gain power, and no one will be safe from his axe.
As marek says like any party Labour isn't perfect but is the closest we can get to a party that will represent the likes of you or i and many like us
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
15 November 2009
09:1833131Face reaility, Keith, there will be massive and immediate cuts whoever wins the election. They are inevitabkle given the mess Brown has created and the sooner the cuits start the better for te economy. To think anything else is a fools paradise.