Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
3 October 2009
17:2929738Well can you adam and eve this one. The super hot fast ferry to beautiful Boulogne, the Norman Arrow, is being taken away after just four months. So if you didnt get a trip on it - well it looks like you are too too late. Story is that they are replacing it with a conventional ferry which is a bit of a retrograde step...or to put it another way - a real bummer! The trip we did to Boulogne in the summer was on the Norman Arrow.
It is a real joy to have this sleek and impressive craft coming into the harbour everyday and apart from its impressive looks , it gives the traveller a real choice..or it did. Now, well its all over.
Its now off to a new life operating between Portsmouth and Le Havre.
Will try and get a picture in a moment.
Guest 656- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 2,262
3 October 2009
17:3829741Well I heard a whisper a couple of days ago about this but I compleatly dismissed it and promptly forgot it untill now, so it's for real then but we have only had it a wet day so to speak, yes, I'm glad I got to go on it but this is a real shame.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
3 October 2009
17:3929742saw the the press release a day or two ago,a rather depressing one to.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
3 October 2009
17:5229745i am sure that an old p and o ferry(aquitaine) is taking over the service.
the service must still be viable for ld lines.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
3 October 2009
18:1729747Gawd I dont believe this...the thing passes by my window everyday and I dont seem to have a picture of it..a case of the familiar breeding contempt !
Not sure the withdrawal is a viability thing as yet but no doubt more will emerge.
Guest 686- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 556
3 October 2009
22:2629780It's an expensive route to operate cannot compete on equal terms with the Dover-Calais route or the tunnel because it cannot take freight - the life-blood of the other operators whether they'll admit it or not. Bolougne cannot take the bigger ships used on the other routes either, or so I understand.
In many respects Bolougne has never been an ideal port for the channel hopper, except to visit Bolougne itself, because it doesn't have the easy access to the motorway that Dunkerque, Calais or the Channel Tunnel have.
Frankly I was quite surprised when the Dover-Bolougne route was resurected in the first place.
Phil West
If at first you don't succeed, use a BIGGER hammer!!
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
4 October 2009
07:2829783Yes very interesting explanation there Phil. The first thing I did wonder about when I heard the news is how is a fairly large ship going to get into that seacat berth in Boulgne. It comes right into the heart of the town, not sure if a ship can do the same thing but Im sure they arent waiting on me to tell them that. They must have some plan.
I think the Boulogne route was resurrected because Boulogne itself is forward thinking and had a very large economic eye on the british travelling market. The hotels though in Boulogne are not up to international standards....us British travellers usually want a bit more if it is to be the ultimate destination.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
4 October 2009
08:0829791I've not heard this at all and am very surprised.
The Norman Arrow can take freight Phil - as big as they come, that was why it was bought.
I also understand that the new motorway system is now open and can get the freight trucks through Boulogne very quickly - equally as quickly as Calais.
I'll contact the LD Lines PR man - Andrew's brother to find out from the horses mouth.
Roger
Guest 673- Registered: 16 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,388
4 October 2009
15:1029807The new hub port in the outer harbour in Boulogne is now open and that is where the Norman Arrow is running to and where the Norman Spirit will berth. I believe that it has excellent motorway links. The ports of Calais and Boulogne now have an agreement to co-operate rather than compete.
The main problem with the Norman Arrow would appear to be the time taken to load and discharge. She can hurtle across the Dover Strait at high speed and great expense burning lots of fuel but the time advantage is dissipated hanging about waiting to get on and off. As she is only single deck loading, all over the stern, presumably all the freight has to be turned around inside the ship and all the tourist stuff on the top deck has to negotiate internal ramps.
Also, there is the usual problem with fast craft that she cannot operate in bad weather. She is now going to be laid up for the winter in Portsmouth and then run in the summer months from Portsmouth to Le Havre.
I think her wash has also been causing problems, requiring her to slow down well before port entry. She was causing berth surges in the Eastern Docks when entering via the Eastern Entrance. Additionally, all these fast craft appear very unmanoeuvrable for berthing at the best of times, let alone in high winds. They are limited to directing the thrust from the waterjets at the stern, there are no bow thrusters for obvious reasons.
After all the hype, LD say they are now going to wait for the next generation of high speed craft to resume the high speed service to Boulogne.
The Norman Spirit is the old Aquitaine ex Prins Filip. She is the ship with which LD started on the channel, running from Pompey to Le Havre, and has been very successful. However, she has had a lot of changes to acccommodate overnight passengers which may make her less suitable for Boulogne than in her previous incarnation Dover - Calais or her original route Dover - Ostend.
Meanwhile, the Cote d'Albatre is operating Portsmouth - Le Havre to help subsidise the Newhaven - Dieppe route which is now operated purely by the Seven Sisters. LD tried her out briefly Dover - Dieppe but the route did not take off.
The Norman Voyager, an off the shelf Visentini newbuild which proved most unpopular running in conjunction with Norman Spirit, has been chartered out to Celtic Link to run direct from Rosslare to Cherbourg. Another newbuilding, the Norman Leader, is being delivered next year.
All in all, LD Lines give the impression of being something of a headless chicken running around trying all sorts of things with all the wrong ships and it will be interesting to see what the future holds. They have the financial clout of the Louis Dreyfus group behind them but how long they can enjoy being subsidised for all these experiments in the present recession must be open to question.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
4 October 2009
16:0329808
The Norman Arrow arriving in the bright sunlight of sunday morning.
See the picture of the ship she is being replaced by on the frontpage and also the LD press release. Interesting one from Ed there so it looks like this could be the last time we will see a catamaran operating in the channel?? After the Speedferries debacle and now the withdrawal of the latest cat, it looks like the companies cant make them pay.
Guest 686- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 556
4 October 2009
17:1529812Thanks for the info on Boulogne Ed. I wasn't aware that Boulogne had made such heavy investment in the port - that certainly changes the prospects of a larger ship making the route viable. LD Lines, like all the other operators, must realise that their bread and butter lies in all-year-round freight traffic rather than seasonal tourists (and the onboard shopping facilities).
Catamarans have always had a problem on the Channel right back to the days of Hoverspeed's SeaCat fleet - the crews didn't nickname them the Vomit Comet without good reason!
Phil West
If at first you don't succeed, use a BIGGER hammer!!
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
5 October 2009
07:1129833I understood that this big-cat was a "wave-cutter" which obviously meant it could cut straight through the waves in adverse weather conditions.
Like I said before, I hope it doesn't have an adverse affect on visitors to Dover, or for that matter, Boulogne.
Roger
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
5 October 2009
08:2429842
It might just be better all round though Roger (just to put a positive spin on it for the moment). Although the sleek 'wave cutter' looks the business and adds a touch of glamour to the channel crossing..it nevertheless hardly gets going on the crossing. The distances are too short for its full potential to be made use of.
I also personally dont need to rush when Im doing the crossing as I quite like a bit of time onboard. The oul sea voyage clears the lungs and stiffens the sinews etc etc etc...not that I ever go outside in all that fresh air!!
This seacat does not have restaurants, just a snackery, does not have bars, just a drinks station, so all n all its main function is speed which is not a real necessity on the English Channel as the distances are short anyway.
While it is certainly an attraction for the summer passenger, attracted by the glamour of it all, its useability with freight in the winter, as the experienced guys mention above, has probably been its undoing.
I would certainly use this new normal ferry to Boulogne as will enjoy the restaurants and the bars and the bit of extra time. So if others feel that way all is not lost.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
5 October 2009
08:5929847I wish LD lines would operate on the Portsmouth - Jersey Route return by fast cat. I have just obtained a quote with Condor Ferries 2 adults 1 child 1 car return trip £394.00 and thats off peak special offer prices!!!There is no competition so Condor can charge what the hell they like!
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
5 October 2009
17:4729869What a crazy price Marek - robbery pure and simple.
I agree that a bit of competition always helps the user/consumer, but as you say, no competition, the cost will be as high as can be.
Maybe it would be cheaper to fly and hire a car
Roger
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
5 October 2009
18:0529873Roger
My problem is I need to bring back some of Natascha's toys,books,Xmas decorations,buy presents and other gear that apparently 'I' forgot to remind the wife to pack!!so plane and car hire is not an option.
I could go to St Malo then drive the 3 hours upto Le Havre then ferry to Portsmouth total cost £296 plus fuel.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
5 October 2009
18:0729874Fly to Manston ?
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
5 October 2009
18:0929875Paul
They stopped flying in Sept until next May 2010
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 673- Registered: 16 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,388
7 October 2009
17:4729962Speed comes at a price. Fast craft cost much more to operate than conventional ferries. They burn much more fuel, and much more expensive fuel, to carry much less traffic from A to B. Ergo, they must charge much more to stay in business. Condor are probably charging the going rate for the job, unpalatable as it may seem. The fact that they are still in business when so many other fast craft operators have vanished without trace would seem to demonstrate this.
Where fast craft have tried to compete with or undercut the competition on price they have gone under. Speed Ferries is the classic example. When they went bankrupt, it transpired that the low rates they had been charging had been unwittingly subsidised by the ports and suppliers at both ends, and by future passengers charged in advance.
The hovercraft were the ultimate fast craft but sadly were far too expensive to build and operate to even contemplate replacing. All the Hoverspeed Seacats out of Dover disappeared one by one. Two of the three giant Stena HSS ferries are off to a new life in Venezuela where the fuel comes out of the ground and is nice and cheap. The Norman Arrow has come and is about to go in the twinkling off an eye.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
7 October 2009
19:5129964it seems strange in this world of what ferry can or cant do,for instance p&o with there convenonal ferrys take 90 minutes yet seafrance with theres take 70 minutes to cross to calias.with the price of fuel seafrance have slowed down to p&os crossing timesthe strange thing about this is that frances fuel duty is less than ours.
