Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Yesterday was the hottest day of the year so far and indeed we may even have peaked. It's high summer and the beaches are full.
But there was an interesting scene yesterday beachwise here in Dover. Down at the furthest end of the beach, furthest away from everyone else, closest to the eastern docks while yet still clinging on to a bit of beach, was a large group of 70 or 80 Iraqis/Iranians. Now this was a very large group so their presence was immediataly obvious. All well and good.
They are of course different from everyone else and we/they know it , we can see it in the way they dress and so on. But here is the odd and perhaps unfortunate bit, all day long they kept totally away from everyone else. It was almost a foreign enclave that is not forever England. Now that may be fine in itself I guess, but here is the worrying bit...there is no integration, no intention of integration, no desire for it.
That might be okay during beachlife but doesnt that also reflect the way we are as a society..fragmented completely and utterly. A whole series of different nations within a nation with nothing joining us up. No connection, no desire for connection.
When politicians tell us on TV that its great to see modern Britain with all peoples all races all contributing splendidly to the mix, isnt that pie in the sky because there is no mix, just isolated groups longing for their homeland.
We can only imagine what emigres must feel, especially those who have fled their own territory out of fear and intimidation having suffered God-knows-what. I have to ask - if you were an emigre would you want to attempt integration if you knew what Dovorians had said about immigration in recent times?
Guest 667- Registered: 6 Apr 2008
- Posts: 919
I have no problem with immigration for those that have come here through fear and intimidation in their own Country. (Although I do think some of the younger men should learn to fight and get back along side our troops and fight for the freedom of their homeland.)
However integration is a two way thing and there has to be a lot of effort on their part as well as ours. They decided to be on their own on Dover beach; they decide to speak their own language and not English, how often do you hear them talking to their children, the children they want to grow up here and yet they talk in their own national tongue.
I like the Australian point of view, you are welcome here, you have freedom here but this is England, respect our Country, respect our ways and our language. If you can not then you also have the right to catch the next plane out.
Guest 656- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 2,262
When I came here all those years ago from the Emerald Isle it was not easy for the Irish, as it was at the height of troubled times and I was met with signs that read No Irish, No Blacks. People said I should go to live in Kilburn as there was a lot of Irish there but I couldn't see the sense in that, I could have stayed in Ireland!!! so I dug my heels in and insisted on intergrating. In my view you have to go for it.
Must say I like the Australian way.They started off on the right foot, pity this government didn't do the same.
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
My friend is Egyptian and his wife is Iraqi,and a lovely lady too,yes they dress differently to us,and they do know it,but they do tend to hang around together for safety reasons as well,lets face it if you were in Iraq would you hang around with the locals,I know things are different there.
On a different note,I have been against the Iraq war since the start,as I think it is only about the Oil,so I was surprised when my Iraqi friend told me she wants the troops in her area.Her family live in Basra,and as she says things are much better know,and....if the troops left watch the Iranians invade.Now I am confused about our troops being there.
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
Guest 663- Registered: 20 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,136
I gess it must be hard to leave your own country but when we chose to go and live abroad ie Fance or Spain we tend to stay together so as CB said why go in the first place, depending as to the reasons why they come here but if you go to places like London or Birmingham people stay within their own communities.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
Jan
It needs people to integrate and not go in there own comunities thats the way forward.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
terrorism has sprouted from the siege mentality adopted by certain groups.
i cannot see the point of going to live anywhere, if there is no contact with the locals.
True Howard - but fear is the master, and many of the genuine people after asylum have been to Hell and back - and it's no good saying that young men should get stuck in and fight with the allies.......tell that to the man who I met who had, along with his young children, been forced to watch his wife gang raped and murdered, to the young man whose lower body is a mass of scars, the young woman whose nipples have been torn out. Horrible to read, but we need to understand where people are starting form, and it's not from a cosy civilised place like our homes. Those experiences do not encourage people to trust others, especially in a hostile or unfriendly environment.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
my experience is different to yours bern, i have just seen groups of people, that are as fit as a flea, refusing to behave in an acceptable way.
no-one could say that dover is a hostile environment!!.
that is why i moved here.
Guest 667- Registered: 6 Apr 2008
- Posts: 919
I have every understanding and sympathy for what some have had to go through and I mean some as they have not all had the sort of atrocities you describe.
It is all about trust, respect and the will to mix, but that has to come from both them and us. I do think they have to get to grips with speaking English and the use of it as a norm, as that way people in the community will get to communicate and then the trust, respect part will follow. There just appears to be this lack of willingness on their part to learn the language and to use it.
As to fighting for their Countries freedom of course in the main I am on about those from Iraq and Afghanistan where our troops are. I would have thought that if some had gone through what you say, then they would want to get some revenge on those that carried out such atrocities.
Did not the people of Poland and other Countries go through some atrocities at the hands of the Nazi's, yet a good number got over here and joined sections of the armed forces to fight for their homeland. Yes and a good number stayed after the war, I know it's a different thing but the principle is not that different.
Any way the main topic of the thread is about integration and not should they fight or not (my fault), I truly believe they have to show a willingness to be part of the community and want to join in. We can hold out the hand of friendship but will they want to accept it or indeed will they understand what we are trying to achieve.
ColetteB did just that by the sounds of it, she must have shown a willingness to be part of the community and now is a respected member of it.
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By the way Colette, nothing to do with this thread but when I came home on leave from N. Ireland after an 18 month posting there, I remember going to a pup in Dover and being turned away because I was a soldier on leave, never been to that Pub again and never will.
Discrimination comes, sadly, in many forms - I share Colettes experiences from way back. I am a little concerned, however, by the T word - "they"!! There are so many diverse immigrants/asylum seekers and we sometimes fail to see the differences. You are right to point that out Harry - Iraqis issues will be different from Zimbabweans and so on. And you are also right that some people coming to the UK have not had that hard time I have seen on peoples faces and heard from their own hearts. But some have, and sadly many people refer to They and everyone is included, missing the vulnerable and traumatised and making it harder for those people to find the integration I suspect they would like. I have to say I am in full agreement that people who do not have the need should not be encouraged or allowed to abuse our system, but we have to make allowances for those who have genuine needs, and such heartbreakingly genuine needs should be acknowledged.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
Bern
The problem with any immigrant is assessing their application and weeding out the bogus from the genuine ones.Those that are genuine are normally either dead or languishing in some God forsaken prison in their home country.I am afraid that if I was an asylum seeker not only would I flee from oppression but I would be accompanied by my spouse and any offsprings.I certainly would not leave them behind to be subjected to physical,mental and or sexual abuse by so-called soldiers seeking my whereabouts.
I regret that a majority of young fit male asylum seekers are just economic refugees nor do I have a problem with that as we all want to better ourselves but they give GENUINE asylum seekers a bad name and reputation.
I think the Govt should overhaul the asylum act(yet again) and perhaps have a section for displaced persons and refugees who do not wish to return to their home country because of an oppressive regime but who would and could return should their be a shift in power.Therefore they would not have to mislead authorities in the UK over their true reason for coming to the UK and instead of being granted Indefinite Leave to remain they could be granted limited leave to remain which could be reviewed every 3 years or whatever.Therefore still allowing the Govt to send them home when conditions in their home country improve.Look at the Baltic states who would have believed 20years ago that they would be free from Russian tryanny.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Marek - it is impossible to say how we would respond in the horrific circumstances some people have had to endure - and sometimes people have fled with the thought that they will reach back for family when they have found sanctuary. There is no need for further tweaking of the asylum laws - as with most laws that are tweaked endlessly, it is not the law but the application of the law that is at fault. Another factor has to be that I wonder how humane it would be to uproot a human being from a place where they have indeed found sanctuary and made a new life just because the ba*****s in their birth country have stopped killing and maiming (for now).
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
Bern
Obviously I appreciate that it is difficult for one to say how one would respond if you found yourself in their position.However I have some slight perception as my father fled from war torn Poland and Europe in 1939 finally,after a couple of bouts as a P.O.W.reaching the safety of these shores in 1941.After being demobbed in '47 he had the choice of returning home but as most of his fellow officers that had returned had disappeared he decided,wisely,to stay in the UK.It became impossible to get what was left of his family out of Poland
due to the Communist regime putting a block on nearly all travel(actually you needed a travel warrant to travel from one town to another in Poland and risked imprisonment should you get caught without one).Before I returned to Poland for a visit in 1980 my poor 82yr old Uncle Viktor spent a couple of nights banged up in chokey undergoing interrogation by the Commies as to why his Govt employed nephew was visiting Poland.Like any good Pole he said nowt.These are people that had over 40 years of oppression but now Poland is at last free and a member of the E.U
What I am advocating (and pretty badly I appreciate) is that these young males could be granted temporary residence using the UK as a 'safe haven' until such time.if any, that they are free to return.At present they make false asylum applications as this is the only avenue available to them through the current system often risking being found out as untrue and being deported.It's in the interest of all parties that these people are treated fairly and are able to state their case for coming to the UK without resorting to tales of persecution imprisonment and torture most of which are unfounded and untrue.
All laws need to be 'tweaked' if they are found to be prejudiced against those they are there to protect.
Sorry its a bit long winded
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 656- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 2,262
Harry, what an awful thing to be faced with in your hometown, especially after being away on an 18 month posting, all you wanted was a quiet drink, there is no accounting for some people.
Marek - it's not long winded and it comes from the head and the heart! I am always keen to read your postings as they are always intersting and intelligent. Thank you.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
what baffles me is why so many go through so many countries to get here.
the rules are that one has to claim asylum in the first safe country.
there are still thousands on the french coast waiting to get here.
the war zone in the pas de calais must be terrifying.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
Howard
That used to be the case ie that you HAD to claim asylum in the FIRST safe country you arrived in but dear old Maggie T signed the Dublin Agreement which resulted in allowing refugees the right to claim asylum in ANY county that had signed the Geneva Convention.Hence they all flee and travel freely through Europe in order to claim asylum when they reach our shores.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 644- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,214
To be fair to the signatories of the Dublin Convention (and Mrs T), when the treaty was signed back in June 1990 Europe was a very different place. It was half its current size if one counts the current members of the EU, the Soviet Union still existed and East Germany was undergoing collapse. When it was being drawn up there was no indication that the DDR was about to undergo meltdown. Asylum was back then mostly used for genuine political reasons and not just used as a mean of travelling in lieu of a passport as it is so often used these days. Politics, and European economics and demographics have changed enormously since those days and Europe was not subjected to the mass movement of peoples from the east seeking economic betterment as it is these days. Everything is easy to criticise with hindsight.
On another note it is my understanding that the persons staying in the hotel near the Eastern Docks that Paul referred to are generally only there prior to dispersal across the country. Most have only been in the UK a few days - it is hardly surprising that they did not 'integrate', whatever that means.