Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Would the Forumites think it a good idea to re-establish a rail link to Western Docks, to carry future increases in freight by rail to established destinations around the U K? There are laws in Britain regarding carbon emissions, which must be kept under control, and DHB envisages that freight and car traffic passing through Dover will increase by about 100% over the next thirty years. This is the reason why they want to build new berths at Western Docks, to handle such an increase.
However, the technology that allows a container to be loaded onto a chassis trailer of a lorry is not new, and providing the rail-wagons were low enough to pass under the tunnel through which the rail tracks pass from Dover to Folkestone, it could be convenient to organise a part of freight traffic by rail and send the containers to destinations from which they could be picked up by lorries and transported to the factories of destination. For example, ten containers to the Leeds area passing from the continent (Europe) to Britain through Dover could be sent by rail to as near as possible to Leeds, and picked up there by lorries and taken to the various factories which imported the freight. This would cut down enormously on the carbon tyre-print.
The proposal of a rail link to Western Docks and the transport of increased freight by rail was part of my representation to gov. in February 2010 to block DHB's privatisation plans of Dover's Port (or Ports), of which a copy went to DHB.
Such a project would also reduce the cost of petrol imports from abroad.
May I note that the idea of "non-carbon" petrol made from mais or other bio products can not work out, as the increasing world population cannot afford to produce billions of tonnes a year of food to make petrol with. Tens of millions of people would starve or die of malnutrition while multi billion companies reap enormous profits, which is out of the question. Oil could be running out for all we know, so to be realistic, would it be feasible to re-examine this proposal of a rail link in Dover to our Western Port? If more berths have to be built, it's better to build them in the right way, for rail traffic, if this should prove convenient.
What is your opinion?
Don't agree Alexander, it would be stepping backwards to do something which already has no serious business case. If the idea was good the railtracks would still be there, but, freight handling and movement is far more effective by road than rail.
As for importing petrol, well, invest the money you propose to spend and getting the oil out of the Atlantic around the Falkland's. That would be better use of public money, if it were needed.
Guest 673- Registered: 16 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,388
Hopefully both green issues and basic economics will one day see large numbers of containers hauled by train and distributed from railheads by tractor units instead of a multitude of tractor units hauling individual containers the whole way across Europe. I frequently look at the endless lines of trucks crawling up the motorway, each with a man dedicated to driving a load consisting of a single container, and wonder how long it can continue.
Railfreight via rail ferries from the Western Docks is a non-starter. Rail ferries ran for many years, finishing off with the Nord pas de Calais running from the end of the Admiralty Pier. British Rail built this railfreight traffic up substantially before the Channel Tunnel was built. Once that was constructed, that was the end of the rail ferry and the berth was dismantled.
Railfreight through the Channel Tunnel has been a dismal flop and decreased to far less than BR was shipping on the single rail ferry. Now that the tunnel is entirely French owned, Eurotunnel have taken steps in recent years to build this traffic up. At one time it was down to a derisory four trains per day. Fifty percent of the train paths through the tunnel were required to be reserved for freight so there is an enormous unutilised capacity.
With a fixed rail link running out under the channel from Shakespeare Cliff, less than a mile from the Western Docks, there is not the remotest chance of anybody going back to the tortuous process of transhipping rail wagons to ships and off again at the other end. DHB made a half-hearted gesture at pretending to examine the possibility of restoring a rail link to the Western Docks for freight, estimating a maximum of 5 percent of traffic through the docks might possibly travel this way, but it was for appearances sake only. They had Network Rail examine the feasibility of reconstructing the Shakespeare Tunnels to permit the passage of continental gauge wagons, which was costed at £40m. Nothing came of it and it is safe to say nothing will. There are no plans for a rail berth in the T2 proposals.
DHB did however miss a trick in not leaving a connection from the mainline into the cruise terminals. This could have enabled cruise passengers to arrive by heritage trains pulled by steam locos and would have been a wonderful start or end to a cruise. There would also be the possibility of using high speed trains to convey cruise passengers direct from London to their waiting cruise ship, possibly special boat trains as in days of yore, utilising the unwanted high speed sets presently sitting around in sidings or utilising other units outside the rush hours.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
interesting posts there, a trick was indeed missed when the cruise terminal was disconnected from the mainline.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Just to let you know that the D.H.B are looking at puting the rail net work back in and also bring back the old train ferrys,I will look at what they are saying later on and put it on the forum.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Well that's nice to know! So may-be my representation made headway after all! Thanks for that, Vic!
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
Rail movement is far more effective than road. Operation stack shows it. Of course, it doesn`t work that way though, because there`s always been a pro-road lobby. Lorries are more effective on a door to door basis. One train equals, one driver, 50 containers. Road equals, 50 driver`s, 50 container`s, 50 lorries, equals good tax revenue for government`s. All goverment`s have been anti-railway over here, that`s why we`re buying Japanese, American, Spanish, Italian unit`s now. Railway movement will always be the most efficient form of transport, in an integrated system. But it will never be allowed to happen, unless we have another conventional war.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 684- Registered: 26 Feb 2009
- Posts: 635
Interesting, Vic. Where are you getting your information from about trains back into the Western Docks?
I would love to see a rail freight link re-established into the Western Docks and, moreover, the High Speed Trains terminating at the still-beautiful Marine Station (perfect for the cruise passengers - and what a dramatic mirror for the glories of St Pancras at the other end of the line, too!). Plus, in an ideal world, Southern House restored to its former Lord Warden Hotel, Grade 1-listed glory.
In retrospect British Rail pulled out of the Marine far too early (1994, if I recall). Hindsight's a great thing though, isn't it?
One's got to dream though, eh...? Aim high, Dover!
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Andrew from the D,H,B at their last meeting also I have their reports of 2008&and 2009 in front of me but I am going out tonight with my wife,we have been asked to go along to the Dover College Summer Concert,and again on Thuresday to the Annual Distribution of Prizes by Rear Admiral Simon Charlier,FRAeS at the College this will take all day + Lunch in the Refectory,must say we both are looking forward to this.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
I dream that too Andrew, as mentioned on other posting`s, and maybe one day it will happen mate. Everything in life seems to go round in a circle. Regarding Vic`s comment on re-opening the train ferry, that`s been reported a few times over the year`s in the free paper`s we used to get through the door. The last time I heard mention of a re-opening though, was at least 3 or 4 year`s ago. DHB were quoted as saying that in 10 year`s, the channel tunnel wouldn`t cope with the traffic. It`s the illegal`s that destroyed it all, and much freight never returned to rail, much to the pleasure of the road lobby.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Nothing in the 2009 DHB annual reports nor the masterplan, so it would surprise me if anything was to happen
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
There is Paul you just have to look for it and look at the plans it is marked on them to.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Ihave found it if you have the D.H.B. booket our plan for the next generation -ferry terminal 2 you will find it on page 39 under heading Rail,if you do not have one please tell me and when I get back in I will write it out for all to see ,and as I said before it could happen.
Guest 673- Registered: 16 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,388
The brochure is available on the Port of Dover website at:
http://www.doverport.co.uk/_assets/client/images/collateral/Our%20plan%20for%20the%20next%20generation%20T2.pdf
Some salient points:
It states that a 2005 study came up with "The results of the study were conclusive in that no future cross-channel conventional train ferry service could compete with the Channel Tunnel or indeed Dover's ro-ro service."
The brochure goes on to say that there might be some potential for intermodal rail freight services to make a small but valuable contribution to Dover's future operations and that they are protecting the opportunity for a future rail facility should the market require it.
A study with Network Rail estimates that it would cost £5.9m for full reconnection of the Port to the mainline.
I would love to see a reconnection to enable passenger train access to the cruise terminals and that is hopefully not beyond the bounds of possibility. As for train ferries, out of the question. Minor chance of a small intermodal operation some time in the distant future.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
I am looking at the 2009 one which we got at the meeting and it is moving on but slow but I think it will pick up as time moves on.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
To add to that Vic, what ferry company will now spend money on a ferry limited to rail traffic ? I don't even know what exists on the other side of the channel - Ed ?
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 686- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 556
The Dunkerque end of the rail link has been dismantled although the berth is still there.
Phil West
If at first you don't succeed, use a BIGGER hammer!!
Guest 673- Registered: 16 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,388
Oddly enough, the old train ferry berth still exists in Dunkerque West but it is totally boxed in by a RoRo berth which was built outside it many years ago. The latter is used by Norfolkline and is their secondary berth when the main one at right angles to it is out of action or occupied. I don't know why they did not dismantle the train ferry berth as it can never be used again, assume it was cheaper to leave it.
The train ferry linkspan is on the top left in this picture with work being done on the RoRo berth to its right by a jack-up rig a year or two ago.
Brilliant description and photos of the train ferry berth in Dover on Dover Ferry Photos link below. It only lasted a very few years and the linkspan has been dismantled and cut up. The train ferry SeaFrance Nord pas de Calais is still in service, carrying RoRo traffic, but is a bit long in the tooth now. I believe she still has the rail tracks in place.
http://www.doverferryphotosforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=567&hilit=trainhoward mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
6 million smackers to reconnect to the mainline does not sound like big dosh nowadays.
it would be a one off payout with revenue from cruise ship pasengers and others forking out for heritage journeys on the steam trains as suggested by others here.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
I have only just got back from the Dover College Concert and I am out with the Buffs at Canterbury in the morning so I will have to do the posting about the railway when I get back.
