Unregistered User
20 February 2010
20:4141107You might want to see this extract from a Canterbury local paper to recognise the financial plight affecting District Councils throughout Kent:
INSULTS were traded as councillors set their budget for the year ahead.
In one of the most bitter debates for years, members of Canterbury City Council spent more than three hours last night (Thursday, February 18) arguing about the future of the district's museums, public toilets and grants to charities.
Officials had warned public access would be limited to 125 people and provided extra security but fewer than half that number turned up to hear the debate.
The ruling Conservative party showed a united front to defeat proposals from the opposing Lib Dems and voted through a budget council leader John Gilbey described as "realistic". He said: "We have set a budget that tackles the severe economic climate while protecting the statutory and frontline services that we know people want.
"The council will continue to be extremely vigilant with its budgets and take a realistic approach to the financial situation whilst continuing to deliver the best possible services."
During the debate, Cllr Gilbey said the recession had forced the council to take difficult decisions including reducing staffing levels, joint working and efficiency savings.
He was given extra time on top of his allotted 10 minutes to outline his arguments about long-term planning and to promise discussions would continue over the next 12 months, with most savings not coming into effect until next year.
Derisive laughter greeted his vow to defend the district's reputation as "excellent and inspirational" but Cllr Gilbey insisted the future was positive.
He said: "This council has the management and teamwork to use our capital budget to provide some optimism and even fire the imagination.
"In this economic climate, more than ever, it is essential to establish the viability of projects.
"These cultural, leisure, sporting and infrastructure projects will have a huge impact on our community if they are sensibly and appropriately financed."
But Lib Dem councillor Adam Parsons described Cllr Gilbey as a "twisted Robin Hood", cutting grants to Age Concern and other charities, but not giving to anyone.
And Cllr Ida Linfield addressed all the Conservative members when she added: "We are accountable to the electorate. We are not accountable to group leaders. Beware of the public. You will get what you deserve."
Lib Dem leader Cllr Alex Perkins set out six amendments to save the Roman and Westgate Tower museums, toilets, Herne Bay museum, charity funding and Westgate Hall, but each was defeated by the ruling Tories.
He said keeping the museums open could cost as little as 2p per household per week and also suggested other ways of funding them, including setting up a trust to manage them.
Cllr Perkins added: "The huge groundswell of support for our museums have made me realise that we have for years been missing an opportunity.
"With better marketing and new signage these museums can be made into a success story."
And he urged Conservative councillors to listen to voters who protested about the planned cuts.
In a direct plea to wavering councillors he hoped would support the amendments, he said:
"Please don't be guided tonight by your political prejudices.
"Please don't just say it's good enough to do nothing and hide behind the damaging mantra that the user pays.
"Accepting these amendments simply means that you have listened to local people and responded to their wishes. It's just a matter of making choices. Make the right ones tonight."
(BLOB) Funding cuts will take effect from April, although the museums will not close until next year and a review is planned for March to find possible partners to keep them open. Whitstable council office and several public toilets will also shut.
Watty
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
21 February 2010
00:3441108Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
21 February 2010
06:0641109Very interesting piece there Paul and readily shows the financial difficulties elsewhere as well. I have reshaped it slightly for an easier read..ie spread it out a bit.
It is a bit of a shock to see Canterbury planning to cut back on some of the things that make the city what it is. Hordes visit there every year to see these assets, so times must indeed be bad if they are cutting back on the very things those visitors enjoy.
21 February 2010
11:5041118Perhaps it's time for UK high street businesses to open their toilets to the public. Some do, without detrimental effect and little extra cost, and I am sure the likes of BHS/Debenhams/Nasons/McD's/BurgerKing and Fenwicks (who charge 50p) get to see people in their store who otherwise they wouldn't.
But, the attitudinal problem remains in UK businesses. "Why should we let the public use our facilites"? They still don't see that we all have human needs. In the U.S. it is so very different.
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
21 February 2010
13:5541126Syd if you read the multi page section on the Toilet Issue I suggested this as 1,option,and even spoke to a shopkeeper who in fact suggested it to me and was in favour of doing it with the financial help.
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
21 February 2010
14:3141128Another bloody historian!
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
21 February 2010
14:5241129Sid
As Dover Business Support Manager, I have spoken with a number of "appropriate" businesses in Dover about letting the public use their toilets, they in turn would be paid a sum of money (to be determined) for allowing the public to use their facilities.
Those I have spoken to, have been quite positive about it, but at this stage there are obviously a number of issues and questions to be addressed.
Roger
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
21 February 2010
17:0041131Surely it could be a clause in planning applications, such as Morrisons ?
Been nice knowing you :)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
21 February 2010
19:2341135this does appear to be the only way forward, toilets in shops an stores ae usually better looked after than their council run counterparts.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
21 February 2010
19:3241137I do not agree there is and should be public toilets in all towns as well as Dover they are paid for by us,I would not think about going into a shop just to use the toilets and young mums with about 2 or more young kids with her what do they do?We need the looes to stay open.
Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
21 February 2010
22:0541145Absolutely right, Vic. Toilets in shops are exactly the sort of get out of jail card Cllr Collor would have been praying for in the recent "Toiletgate" disgrace. No letting DDC off the hook from me over this one - public toilets are essential public services, end of.
I'm not sure that Paul W's original post was intended as an extension of the toilets row, though, more an illustration that DDC's ills are not unique, and a good point was well made. It's how different councils respond to the challenge that is the crux of the matter; whilst I'm not arrogant enough to suggest that I have the answers to challenges that many up and down the country are coming to terms with in the most difficult economic times since God alone knows when - plainly, I don't - I do think that we need better thinking processes all round. Council services are becoming more expensive to run every year and increasing Council Tax charges in order to cope is becoimng increasingly difficult from a political viewpoint, so where does it all end? Taken to the nth degree, after all the services have been cut, after all the staff have been laid off, the Council Tax will serve to pay for nothing but the Council itself. Somewhere along the line, something radical has to happen if we are to keep any public services at all: what that something is, only time will tell, but it is not easy job to try to fathom out all the public sector's difficulties, and those that try to do so invariably cop for some unjustified criticism.
Some of that criticism is justified, however. The toilets thing, for example...........
True friends stab you in the front.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
22 February 2010
07:4641155No one has been saying or inferring that we do away with all public toilets and just have those in cafes and shops etc. but maybe, if enough of them are happy to do this, then it may cut down the number (of public toilets) needed and the cost to the ratepayers.
Those left can be kept cleaner for cheaper and if after some time, the old run-down ones could be knocked down and brand-new ones built, then we will have toilets to be proud of.
Roger
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
22 February 2010
09:0441161Roger. We have only two in the town centre now,so what do you mean in saying"Cut them down in number.?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
22 February 2010
12:1041166vic
you have said yourself that the ones in the charlton centre were the best locally and you were quite happy to pay for the use of them.
22 February 2010
12:1741168Vic old fruit, you need to expand your horizons, particularly as the area covered by this conversation is Dover & District, or the areas under the control of DDC. It's quite important to understand this if you are do anything for UKIP in the upcoming GE. There are a number of public toilets that could be made redundant if the local retailers were a bit more socially aware.
I don't personally see why we, the tax payer, should subsidise private enterprise to do what any normal, socially conscious organisation should do for its community. If there are organisations that won't play ball, well, name and shame them publicly. For those who are prepared to "do their bit", well name them too, in a positive way of course.
If we could get this campaign rolling it is quite possible that over 50% of the public loo's could be closed without any impact whatsoever. Tax payers money will be saved and everyone wins.
As for knocking down and rebuilding the loo's that are closed, well, what is the point of that? Maybe run an architectural competition amongst the locals similar to Trafalgar Square, and replace the old loo buildings with something more appealing. Maybe flatten the sites, install some seating and turn them into places where residents can have a rest and enjoy the day. Just suggestions, none of it rocket science, but if DDC spent over £100,000 on bus shelters for yobs, then surely they could spend a little something for the rest of the community?
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
22 February 2010
14:3341170I have already said I am on about the two in the Town centre lads.
Howard Yes I did say that about the one in Charlton Centre but it is a very small one, you can only use it to when the centre is open.And we also must think of the summer weeks when we put on events in the town and get lots of the public with their familys to and the older ones of us who also go to the events,you must see for yourself that the two main public looes in the town centre must stay open, and what about the few of the public we see in the day and night time that have had to much to drink etc no shops are going to let them in so what happens they will go in the road .I can not had much more about this. Vic M
22 February 2010
15:3741172Vic, I think the public toilets are all closed when the pubs chuck out. As for town centre events, one of the biggest, the annual carnival, is forced to go when the place is shut down for the night, but bars are still opern and they have toilets the public could use.
TBH I see no compelling argument for keeping public toilets open where they are not needed, and the town centre and Buckland Bridge fall into that category. Of course, if there is to be no effort to change the way we do things (not at all surprising from what I've seen on my return), then we need t okeep all the public toilets open and pay for them.
One might suggest only those who pay council tax, and their immediate families, should be at liberty to use them. Not saying I support the idea, but it may open the discussion a bit.
I have no idea about public toilets in the rest of the district, but assume the same open/close criteria would apply.
Guest 688- Registered: 16 Jul 2009
- Posts: 268
22 February 2010
18:1841180I have spent a lot of time in the Museums in Canterbury,if anyone is interested there is a petition to try and stop the closures.Like Dover museum,once somthing like that is gone it has gone forever.
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,023
22 February 2010
23:5141215John ,
maybe its late at night and I have been at a meeting tonight ,however on first glance your posting gives the impression Dover Musuem is closed .Not so I have responsibility for the Musuem so I should know .
We have some good ideas coming through .
23 February 2010
08:0841216Sue, where is it?
