howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
when i first heard this it seemed a good idea but it only applies to motorways.
this could mean a lot of trucks opting to use other roads.
http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kentonline/news/2012/january/25/foreign_lorry_drivers.aspxJan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,835
A much simpler and surely cheaper to run scheme would be to pay a set tax on entry to the country, a sliding scale between £50 and £100 depending on destination.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
that sounds better, not sure of the legality though.
i seem to remember reading that it couldn't be done.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
I see the Green Party in the feature above there are still in the twilight zone, expecting that this charge of £10 per entry to foreign trucks would help to keep a sizeable level of trucking off the road, and shove a sizeable amount of goods onto other forms of transport. This is baloney Im afraid. The twilight zone..Green style.
There are just no alternatives to this form of goods movement. The train can do some but has nothing like the intricacies of network needed.
Sure, trucks clog up the road...look at this...Dover peak time..
but we are stuck with it. The problem with this £10 charge is that it will inevitably be passed on to the poor hapless customer in the shop. His goods will go up in cost so its yet another tax on top of all the other taxes. Trucking companies as I understand it are not terribly flush, didnt one trucking organisation around these parts go bust recently, much the same in Europe I expect... so the only thing that they can do is pass it on...and who pays, yes...the guy standing in the queue in Tesco.
Guest 715- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 2,438
You are right Paul the costs will end up with us as always, unless the generated income is used to reduce our road taxes? thought not! Who will be the tax collectors for the money? I am sure the Ferry companies will not want to do it, an unpopular tax will hardly endear them to their customers if they are seen to be the enforcer.
Audere est facere.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
won't be the ferry companies martin, the report suggests that it will be for using motorways.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
There is a grey area here Howard...
According to the BBC digital ceefax on the TV ...I quote
" £10 per day to use UK roads"
So UK roads by the look of it....not just motorways.
I cant see myself how they could make it work on motorways only...not without mammoth investment in Toll Booths etc right across the network. The admin costs, the build costs, would almost defeat the purpose of having it in the first place.
You are right about the Ferry companies Martin, they wouldnt be keen...but would they have a choice?
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
it could be a form of a road tax disc.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,835
I automatically thought the Border Agency (customs) could do it.
Paul the BBC news reports were saying motorways this morning.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
it is all very vague, seems to be at the embryonic stage.
i don't fully agree that the tolls would be passed on.
firstly uk truckers get reimbursed the fees which would help them in their battle to compete on a level playing field with their competitors.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
quite a big story on the local news, i understand that permits can be bought in advance online or whilst on a ferry which sounds a better economic idea than toll booths. there will be a database available showing who has a permit.
local haulier john clark of clan haulage was interviewed
as was councillor bryan sweetland, cabinet member for transport at k.c.c.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
I heard that it will cost £5 million to operate and bring in £25 million.
Roger
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
thus making a profit.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,835
That all depends how much they give back to the British drivers in their road tax. I suspect that refund will be along the lines of 'we will not raise the hauliers road tax this year'.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,701
This is certainly a step in the right direction
There are many ways to reduce the impact of trucks such as road-rail distribution hubs of course that requires an investment in the rail infrastructure, which in Treasury speak is deemed to be a subsidy, so will never happen.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 686- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 556
How do other countries operate their schemes? DFDS Seaways sells the Eurovignette on their vessels or they can be purchased in France on arrival from UK. As far as I'm aware the vignette can be purchased for a single day or as much as a whole year. There is no mileage limitation that I'm aware of (for Belgium at any rate). Germany has a different system that does relate to mileage and the point of entry and destination has to be declared. One hears stories of drivers being diverted from a recognised route (presumably by their companies) and suffering heavy fines as a result.
The UK's main difficulty, as I see it, is not having any land borders! It stands to reason, therefore, that any road tax charges will either have to be levied in the port on arrival or in France prior to departure. On-line purchase would be a viable option too.
I don't really see why HMG seems to think it would be difficult to administrate - just keep it simple. A UK registered truck will already have a tax disk, a foreign truck wouldn't so the driver must be able to display (or at least hold) some sort of ticket (vignette) that is valid for the period of his stay in UK. Hefty on-the-spot fines will soon get the message across - well it works over the water!!
As for the Green stance on this issue; I sometime wonder what planet they're on. There is no way you can remove freight from the roads, even if you put a lot of it onto trains. You still need to move it around the country from the railheads!!
Phil West
If at first you don't succeed, use a BIGGER hammer!!
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Neither a £10 or a £50 toll would effect retail prices.
Take a trailer full of tomatoes. Say 20,000 kg. For a kg of imported tomatoes to go up by 1 pence, the toll would need to be 20,000 pence. That's £200.
So a £50 toll on that freight would lead to an increase of one quarter of a pence per kg.
So if you buy 200 grammes of tomatoes, that's one fifth of quarter of a pence more.
And a £10 toll? one fifth of that.
It is not mathematically possible to increase retail prices on a toll of £10 or £50, Paul.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Rail heads were mentioned - Ross in post 15.
Calais have learnt how to access EU money on a worthwhile scale as the Trans-Siberia railway is having mega investment by China and Russia and their is to be a big rail-head in Calais.
Much long-distance goods from China will be coming by rail instead of by sea and beinbg picked up and dropped of at various points along the route.
From Calais much of the freight will be unloaded on to container trucks for onward movement to the U.K.
If T2 is not started soon and we (DHB) do not start accessing EU money as well, we will lose out to other UK ports even though we are the closest to mainland Europe.
It could make Dover even more important unless we delay too long.
Roger
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Alex can you imagine it for a moment...I dont know where the £50 comes into it, but lets take that figure then. Remember the charges are per day. So if a truck was charged £50 per day and was on the road seven days per week, thats a hefty charge for a small company = £350. But let's say that a small company is operating 10 trucks, as many would, then you are looking at a considerable chunk of revenue... £3500...per week
and bearing in mind that at least some of the time these trucks will be running empty, then you can feel it in your bones who will be picking up the tab, as many trucking companies couldnt afford that charge.
The proposed fee of £10 will render those figures smaller of course...so the upshot from my point of view is that some small charge might be good, as long as Joe Muggins doesnt end up paying for it.
It could once again be a tax on us all...and on the poor more so, They will pay the same levy as the rich guy, but spending a higher percentage of their income.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,701
Roger - I agree that we should be seeking appropriate investment as part of T2 to build a railhead for containerised freight, which could be loaded at Calais on trailers then driven from the ship to the railhead at Dover for onward movement by train. Railheads do have an impact on goods vehicle movement as they reduce journey lengths and are particularly effective for high volume products. They are not the only answer and some form of road charging will also go some way limiting journeys and if not the money must be ring fenced to pay for road maintenance etc. which ultimately reduces the burden on the man in the street as County Councils would not need to raise so much from Council Tax payers for road maintenance.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
