25 February 2010
12:3641354Did anyone else see the rather depressing programme last night on BBC?
Still available on the IPlayer here :-
http://bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00r3qyw/The-Day-the-Immigrants-Left/
In essence a group of long term 'job seekers' were placed in employment at present being done by a mixture of Portuguese, Bengalis and Eastern Europeans to see how they would hack it.
Three were sent to the potato packing factory (which was not unlike Tilmanstone Salads where I have worked). Only two turned up and they were half an hour late on their first day. They proceeded to bugger up the packing due to an apparent inability to count how any packs they were putting in a box.
At the restaurant only one of the four turned up for work. He started by being unable to tie his own neck tie and went downhill from there and in spite of numerous cigarette breaks when it all got 'too much' did not last the day.
The three on piece work picking asparagus picked so little that their boss was £50 out of pocket making their pay up to the minimum wage.
The only one who did reasonably well was a carpenter but even he had a hissy fit at one point as he could not take criticism of his work.
How the Hell have we produced so many useless, ignorant and unemployable oiks.
I despair.
Guest 643- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,321
25 February 2010
13:1141355I didn't see the programme Bob but as you say - very depressing. Say what you like about the so called immigrants, those that work appreciate their jobs and work hard. With more and more of them willing to do low paid jobs just to earn a living and to intigrate, these lazy so and sos will stay on benefits and do nothing. I think pride is the word missing, a reason to get out of bed. One day maybe they will wake up and smell the roses and realise what they're missing.
There's always a little truth behind every "Just kidding", a little emotion behind every "I don't care" and a little pain behind every "I'm ok".
25 February 2010
17:0041373Perhaps if their benefits were stopped as an incentive to do a proper days work we might start to see a change in attitudes.
Perhaps if the Job Centre folks had "more muscle" we'd see a few thousands getting into work rather than a benefits poverty trap.
I recall a story about the depression in the U.S. where all able bodied men were forced to go up North to work as lumberjacks or in the forestry industry. Worthwhile work with a paid wage that got them off benefits and did wonders for their self-esteem, once they'd accepted the fact that they had to go. I often think it wouldn't take much to implement such a scheme here, not necessarily forestry, but maybe infrastructure improvements. For some it would give the chance to learn a worthwhile skill that would benefit them for years to come.
It's far too easy now just to sign a form and get money, albeit not much for some.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
25 February 2010
17:0541375I think that Mr Perkins has hit the nail on the head and I
am in agreement with what he said.
Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
25 February 2010
18:5941379I saw the trailer for it, Bob, and decided to give it a miss. From your description, I'm glad I did, it would have had me ranting at the telly and doing my blood pressure no end of harm.
"How the Hell have we produced so many useless, ignorant and unemployable oiks?" That would be the benefit state that apparently so many immigrants come here for.............
True friends stab you in the front.
Unregistered User
25 February 2010
19:1441381Forum members will know I am not a soft touch on migration but let me state that if we did not have migrant labour in the agricultural, hospitality and care industries we would be in a mess. This does not include what goes on in the "black economy".
We need to differentiate between migation ,immigration and asylum. Frankly it is not easy to understand for the lay person[me included].
The programme was a fair representation on the current situation- tragically.
Watty
25 February 2010
19:2441383Paul, I maintain a tougher climate for benefit seekers who are capable of working would reduce the need for so many immigrant workers.
The trouble is, apart from the unacceptable BNP perhaps, none of political parties have shown the balls to do something about it. Maybe should encourage some immigrant Australian politicans to show us how to deal with this issue?
I am sure there are enough able bodies unemployed Brits to fill the vacancies if 'encouraged' to do so.
Unregistered User
25 February 2010
19:3241384Sid, I would hope all political parties have "the cojones" to do as you suggest.
Unless they do we are in for more of the same.
I know this may not be fashionable but don't blame the migrants, in this case they are "the good guys".
They are hard working and entrepeneural.
Watty
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
26 February 2010
08:5241410This programme should be compulsive viewing for all as there is so much misinformed opinion spoken on the subject of immigration everyday. Well done Bob with the link there. But yes Andy..your blood pressure will be skyrocketing should you watch.
It is quite clear that migrant workers are vital to the economy here. As Ive often said myself, and I see that young Paul Watkins chap agrees with me, places like the grand London metropolis would grind to a staggering halt without migrant labour.
But I will give a synopsis of the programme ,although Bob has done similar but just to expand it a tad, for those who havent the time to watch although all should....
FOUR english workers get a job in an Indian Restaurant. They turn up for training. On the day of the job..THREE of the FOUR fail to show, the fourth guy quits half way through lunch. leaving the Indian owner, a very pleasant man, completetely stuck. Situation saved by immigrants.
THREE english workers get job at potato factory. ONE fails to show but sends a text. This guy texting is 20 and has never worked, but has been getting dole for 5 years since leaving school. No pressure to work. He prefers his Playstation. The other TWO guys show up but give the impression all through the programme they are doing the company a favour. They spend all the time whinging about the company and about foreigners.
and then THREE english workers get a job cutting a farmers asparagus. It pays piecework. But after several days they cant cut enough asparagus to qualify for the minimum wage. The farmer has to make up the cash difference for legal reasons, but is obviously just giving money away for nothing, as the trio did such poor work and are useless. One gets aggressive. The famer said, and another very pleasant man he is too, that he couldnt make it pay with english workers like these. The immigrants work like dynamos.
There were some more items in the programme. But all businesses in the programme said they would close down without migrant workers. The potato factory said it would try NOT to close down but would increase automation, in other words would do it with machines instead of english workers.
26 February 2010
09:0141411A complex topic, and one that needs examination. Whatever your stand on migration, there are some practical outcomes to our current sorry state in terms of native workers. There are many migrant workers, as PaulW points out, without whom some industries would be untenable - social and nursing care is one. The real outcome though is that many of our vulnerable elders and sick are cared for by people who do not speak English. Imagine: you have had a stroke and are not able to communicate well, have some trouble hearing perhaps, slur your words a bit, get a little muddled. And your nurses and carers don't speak English or understand some of the idioms and expressions you might use or want used. This is not an unusual circumstance by any means. It is no critisism of the workers - many of whom are kind and caring, and many of whom have significant skills - but it is an indictment of how we fund and perceive the care and support of our elders and our sick.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
26 February 2010
10:0041415This is what I`ve experienced up at King`s Bern, and just had a lousy week up there. I`ve made some nice freind`s of all nationalities last year there, but there are the odd one`s who speak little English or none at all, and if you`re after something you know you need in the way of medicine, they mutter and smile but you don`t know if they`ve grasped what you said. Saying that, it is an excellent hospital with many very pleasant overseas worker`s, and like the white`s, some work hard, other`s will do as least as possible.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
26 February 2010
10:1741419Good and bad in all Colin, as you know.
What no-one seems to ask or want the answer to though, is why we find ourselves so dependent on migrant labour and what we can do to reverse that trend?
It is simply unacceptable to have 2million on benefits and at the same time to be importing labour.
I discount those coming here to learn, perform roles natives possibly won't be able to, diplomatic missions ex pat workers etc.,
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
26 February 2010
11:1241423Sid
You ask
What no-one seems to ask or want the answer to though, is why we find ourselves so dependent on migrant labour and what we can do to reverse that trend?
My wife is from the Philippines,she has a degree in Social Work and UK gained NVQ's in Adult Care.She works as a Deputy Care Manager in a residential home for the Elderly.A post that was vacant for 12 months as the home were unable to fill due to lack of "home grown" qualified applicants.
In Manila (alone) there are approx 7 thousand students training and studying in English towards a BSc degree in Nursing in order that they may secure employment throughout the Middle East and 'Western world'. All their education ,fees books etc has to be paid for by family members etc no student loans.It's this work and ethic study that this country appears to have lost.Most teenagers over here aspire to be the next swag (Coleen Rooney - from check out girl to £7+ million pa celeb overnight no qualifications necessary) or Pop Idol than study towards a worthwhile and rewarding career. Hence this country's dependancy upon migrant labour.
We can't even employ Brits to undertake the menial of unskilled tasks(see Bob's posting above) never mind asking them to work in hospitals and care homes cleaning arses, caring and looking after our sick and elderly.We need to totally change our education system so as to adapt to todays needs.More vocational training and career directed courses of study fo fulfil these posts rather than letting them leave school unable to read and write.They even need help to fill in their unemployment application and council house forms!!.
It is simply unacceptable to have 2million on benefits and at the same time to be importing labour.
Totally agree. So lets overhaul the benefits system ("yet again!" I hear you cry).In Jersey,not a million miles away from mainland UK,obtaining benefits is very difficult.You must have been employed full time for at least 6 months previously before becoming eligible to apply for any type of benefit and you must give your reasons ,in full, as to why there has been a change in your status.So leaving school and signing on the rock on roll is simply not an option.
Whether employed or not one is still required to pay ones social security (N.I) contributions.So upon leaving school not only do you not receive any dole money you also have to start forking out for your NI stamp. I am not saying that this is the answer but merely highlighting an alternative system.
I discount those coming here to learn, perform roles natives possibly won't be able to, diplomatic missions ex pat workers etc.,
Point taken but " perform roles natives possibly won't be able to do" appears to be expanding and "won't be able" should read "are not willing to do" What incentive is there for anyone to work when by doing so you lose your all your allowances and end up financially 'worse off'. A decent salary for a a decents day work could help alleviate some of these problem areas.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
26 February 2010
12:2641426An interesting reply Marek, thanks.
In Nigeria just about anyone who can, studies for a degree or qualification of some sort and it seems the Philippines are similar. However, the qualified in Nigeria cannot get work because they have no experience!
The opposite is the case here. Job adverts for even junior roles in the IT industry demand BSc's, MBA's, Red Brick degrees and so on. Consequently there are a huge number of vacancies going unfilled because the level of qualifications required has no real bearing on the role to be performed. Why would someone with a BSc for instance, want to take a project manager role (also requiring PMI/Prince2 qualifications) for the princely sum of less than £40k pa? They don't need to, and consequently don't. Ergo, the post remains open. We can guess how it will be filled, with labour from the sub-continent by governement policy.
What we are seeing is a culture of qualification for qualification sake rather than actual requirement to do the job. This in turn is fostering a culture of non-investment in staff development. UK management are hopeless when it comes to putting together career and training plans for staff, and that really needs addressing too. Culture change for managers is long overdue.
In addition, the CIPD needs to take a hard look at how it's members are advising industry and it wouldn't hurt for them to sit down with Government to discuss, and hopefully agree, a plan of attack to address the unemployment situation.
It seems to me radical reform is the way forward, allied to culture change at the highest levels, and a return to appreciation and support of vocational and on the job training. While we're about it, it wouldn't hurt to reinforce that lost word in employment circles "loyalty", from both perspectives, employer and employee.
However, the main concern remains as to how we address the culture of making work unavailable for the masses and refocus on maximising the available workforce at our finger-tips. The example given of no-hopers earlier I think demonstrates the wrong attitude towards people. Everyone needs to feel they a re making a real contribution and getting paid fairly for it. I'm not sure my reaction to those tasks would have been different if I am honest. UK managers still want slave labour, and that attitude absolutely has to change, if only to bring back respect for our fellow man/woman in the workplace.
Big subject this and looking forward to more contributions that hopefully will remain focussed on the subject and not drift into a political slanging match.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
26 February 2010
13:0041429Brilliant posting`s from Marek and Sid. Alot seems to make sense to me now. My younger daughter is at uni`, and I suspect she`ll have the qualifications with no job prospects at the end of it. As mentioned above, the whole system on education and benefit`s to mention two are all in need of drastic overhaul, and I suspect painful to some.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
26 February 2010
19:0841438I was in the jobcentre today (don't ask - I have a job!) and there was a woman on the phone giving someone a real ear-bashing because they wouldn't buy her a washing machine as hers was broken. I don't know first hand how these places work, and was surprised to find that people were able to use the phones to abuse people trying to give them a leg up. I was also surprised that women apparently can't hand wash these days - the thrust of this womans ear-splitting and obscene whine was that she would have to wait 2 weeks for her new washing machine that I am buying for her out of my taxes. She was threatening to keep the kids off school until it arrived as she wouldn't be able to keep their clothes clean. In my day (I know, I know...) we sucked it up and got on with it. I was without a machine when ours broke for some time when ours were small (now in their teens and just above) and I hand washed everything, dried it where I could and ironed for England. I didn't expect someone to buy me a new one (apart from my Old Man!!) and I didn't ear bash anyone because I was without a machine that women were without for centuries not so long ago.
PS - she was after a "crisis loan" to buy the machine. I was not aware that lacking a washing machine was a crisis, and we all know about how many of these "loans" are actually paid back!!!
26 February 2010
19:1041439God I sound mean!!!!
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
26 February 2010
21:0241440You`re one of the life and soul`s of the forum Bern.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
26 February 2010
22:014144226 February 2010
22:2241443Here's a little blog to raise your blood pressure even higher Bern:-
http://winstonsmith33.blogspot.com/ " target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">
http://winstonsmith33.blogspot.com/
It will save you the walk to the Job Centre!
