Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
The French President has said that the burqua should be banned.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/5603859/Nicolas-Sarkozy-says-the-burqa-is-not-welcome-in-France.html
I have mixed views on this.
On one hand I am revolted by seeing woment dressed this way on the streets of the UK. Such dress is alien to this country and Sarky is right, it is an emblem of oppression not of religion, a statement of religious extremism and culture, not a requirement of Islam.
On the other hand I do not like the idea of any politician telling anyone how they should dress.
On balance I tend to more sympathise with what Sarky is saying simpy because of what the burqua represents. I can, I suppose, because I would not approve of marches by neo-nazis wearing swastikas and I see this matter of the burqua as no different to that.
I can only agree: the wearing of burquas and niqabs is oppression in the name of religion. I fact, no religion demands the wearing of these prisons, it is a male-dominated oppressive afghanistan-based culture that has imposed them. Of course there should be freedom of expression, including clothing, but a nation and culture has the right to define freedoms and protect those who have little choice, either through pressure or through control and brain-washing. In the same way that we support freedom of speech but "pay" for it by ensuring that it is nor abused to incite hatred or tensions, we should support freedom ofexpression but also ensure it is not abused to promote oppression.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
This is a very difficult one in that we have to be careful we are not applying western principles to peoples that
a) arent western
and
b) dont want to be western.
Its a bit like our version of democracy is not necessarily a goer elsewhere on the planet, and sometimes people are better off before we start telling them they should have democracy. Is Iraq better off without Saddam Hussein...who knows? Apart from his provoked beligerence the country itself seemed to amble along without too much of a problem.
I remember with the first Bush war when we 'liberated' people from the Taliban by inglorious saturation bombing by B52's..the news teams showed the insatiable viewer back home how one or two women now Taliban free were throwing off their Burkhas. A good news story til another crew went back later to find that all women were still wearing them by choice.
Its not too difficult to understand why western non believers, who dont know any kind of religion in their daily lives, are finding it hard to identify with other peoples beliefs and customs.
France IS western. While not wanting to oppress similarly to the misogynists who create an atmosphere that makes it ok for women to feel they need to be covered in heavy fabric from scalp to toe to be acceptable, and not expecting everyone who lives in the west to be Westernised, there are sensible and acceptable limits. This is one of them.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Well..hmmm..I think though looking at this in the guise of the oppressed woman thing is not altogether looking at the full picture. Its too simplistic. Its us applying western values on what we would do here in Bermondsey or Bognor where we would be shouting about rights and what have you. But its coming at it from the wrong angle.
You might remember the story of the teacher here a year or so ago who fought tooth and nail to keep it on. It didnt look to me like a woman oppressed but rather the opposite, she is just as much a beleiver as any man or any suicide bomber if we want to go that far, and actually wants..wants to wear it as part of her very strong religious beliefs.
In some circumstances, as in teaching, I think the law was right to rule against it but as a general thing oppressing religious practice, and lets not forget its a religion with strong and all encompassing beliefs, then its a sticky wicket of a route to go down.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
I know it's an over-used saying, but "When in Rome" seems to apply very much with this.
We;'ve had terrorists moving around teh country undetected because they were dressed in the Burkah; I actually find it intimidating to see women walking down the street dressed in them.
If women wear it in this country because their men tell them to, then that is oppression; but it is a problem for them to change, when they have been wearing it for many many years , it is inherent in their nature/behaviour to continue doing so.
I think I agree with Sarkosy.
Roger
Absolutely. And PaulB, it is NOT a rel;igious thing, it springs solely from mens interpretations of quotes, simply to suit themselves. Like the beards thing - men were killed in some middle eastern countries for shaving - there is no religious rule about it, it was simply a tool of oppression forced onto uneducated people who were not allowed or empowered to learn any better. We sometimes moan about people living here for extended periods of time and still not speaking English - generally it is the women, and generally it is because they are not allowed by the men to learn it. fear and ignorance allow power to remain where it is.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Two little items..
You might remember the humble nun Bern, they used to flourish when you and I were wee young things. They were covered from head to toe but Im sure they did it because they wanted to. It was a religious thing and they went into it with their eyes wide open. I was thought by them as a young kid and still have the raw hands to remember the experience. But it was an odd practice and would have appeared that way to many, in its own sweet way it became Hollywoodised and acceptable as cute. We wouldnt want some nasty foreigner telling them that they couldnt wear their habit..it was a choice thing.
Last year I saw a strange sight down here on the beach. It was a large crowd perhaps 40 or so of Women in Burkhas bathing. Ive referred to this item before on here as it was so unusual. They went down to the far beach near the docks to be by themselves and they made for an unusual sight. All black and all bathing in the sea. Okay it was an unusual sight for western eyes... but who's to say they are not as happy and as content as the next woman. If thats what they want to do then Im all for it and they were doing no harm to anyone. They on the other hand see the scantily clad westerners and are horrified...as indeed we ourselves would have been if it was still 1900.
Its a question of accepting other peoples beliefs and values and not forcing something on them because we think we are saving them from themselves..a classic western mistake.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
none of us can go into a bank with a balaclava or crash helmet on for obvious reasons.
why should the burka be any different.
when i lived in ilford a lot of asian shops would not let women in dressed in this way.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
PaulB - I was struck by your comment about some not wanting to 'be westernised'. Well if they are living in the West then they need to integrate and become westernised. If they do not want to fall in with our standards and values and to integrate then we should question why they are here.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,696
We can do no better than look to the most western of the Islamic states; Turkey, where even the wearing of headscarfs on state premises is not allowed.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
I would not go as far as an outright ban. It is a tricky issue, the tension between host and incoming culture.
I think the British instinct is to be tolerant; that only becomes a problem in my view when tolerance is regarded as weakness by a small minority who seek to impose their own culture on the indigenous one.
Of course any culture changes over time and to that extent we have benefited from cross-fertilisation from immigrant communities.
Personally I think the impersonal forces of globalisation and Americanisation are a bigger threat to our native culture (whatever it is). The main aspect of immigration which really concerns me is simply that England is already the most densely populated country in Europe and hence immigration needs to be carefully controlled.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
I'm a little concerned on this one, i wouldnt want to dictate to some one how they shoulld dress, or wot to believe in.
I recently visited a mosque and was told by the leaders that no woman are instructed to wear the head gear, for some women its a belief they have to wear
the head gear so who are we to tell them otherwise?
Certainly some of the replies from the leaders were far from satisfactory and i can see how people can be brain washed.
it was an interesting visit, and and eye opener.
that said i feel like paulb why should we push them a direction away from a strong belief they may have.
It is NOT religious! The belief stems entirely from indoctrination by the male dominated state as a tool of oppression. Nuns were religious, and they made choices - having said that, PaulB, you know as well as I do that many nuns and priests did not make free choices, impacted on as they were by family and social pressures as well as indoctrinated notions of goodness and sin. but this is not an issue about religion, it is an issue about power and oppression. Many of those women probably do think they are making a choice, but in context that is an unlikely outcome.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
you are missing the point keith, why should a small section of the population be allowed to hide their faces.
hoodies, who show most of their faces, have to remove the hood at a lot of premises.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
HOWARD
Nay laddie not missing the point, I dont share the viewpoint
I feel it is more choice whether the woman to bern feel they are being used
a lot of woman CHOOSE to wear them,
I don't agree they should be made to.
but if they choose to who are we to stop them?
the hoodies howard are a diffrent thing altogether as you know and i wont insult your inteligence on that one.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
keith
kindly explain how they would get onto buses and trains with photocards?
how would they get a driving licence, passport etc?
most muslims hate them with a vengeance.
would you as a copper be able to interview someone that hides their face?
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
Howard,
yes i do interview people every day, and these people no diffrent
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
so how do you do the photograph bit when they are charged?
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Is that where the expression about "they all look the same" comes from ?
When wearing a burkah, they will all look the same - men and women.
Roger