Sid Pollitt
9 December 2008
19:2810665I found David Cameron's speech to the LSE today a little empty. I did wonder why the Shadow Chancellor, it's George Osborne if you've forgotten, didnt make the speech as it was on economics. I then found that it was really just spin and flannel and Cameron told us what the Tories would do to counter the recession, nothing.
He then waffled on about the broken society nonsense he hasnt mentioned for a while, saying that at a time of recession is when the less well off suffer. Which was funny really because his only remedy seemed to be that if he was in charge he'd wring his hands.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
9 December 2008
19:4910666I didnt see the whole speech myself Sid but saw excerpts of it on the BBC News. It was much of the same old stuff, although more forceful according to the BBC, although Im not sure what that means. But the surprising thing was the massive coverage the BBC gave it. Lead story covered in depth in what was essentially old news.
He did though call for a general election to be held now. That bit was new I suppose. Somehow this call for a general election didnt make it into the headlines where one would have thought it might.
The Conservatives have been complaining about the BBC's lack of impartiality, meaning of course that they favour Labour. They( the BBC) certainly addressed that particular accusation tonight.
As for the broken society. No, its unfortunate to describe your own country in such a way, its akin to talking down the pound as we saw the other week. Society isnt broken. Its more diversified, more complex, more multicultural than it used to be, but not broken. Its thriving in so many ways.
For example I heard today on the same news bulletin, how our school kids are triumphing in science and maths and have soared up the World results table....now among the best in the world. We used to have this debate before about kids leaving school today. They are as good if not better than they ever were. No a broken society doesnt produce results like that.
9 December 2008
20:0210667Cameron let us down, and he let his party down. We are not broken. There are challenges now, and we need some TLC in some places and lots of acknowledgement of successes in others, but we are not broken. Cameron missed the point, lost the opportunity, and blew it.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
9 December 2008
20:5010686i think that we have a fragmented society, one can see evidence of the "jeremy kyle show" on a daily basis in any city or town.
the underclass is with us with their own culture, unless this is tackled by government, things will only escalate.
the afore mentioned underclass have many more children than the average.
9 December 2008
22:1810694You are right, Howard - but fragmented is not the same as broken, and we have always had a fragmented society!!! It's the nature of the beast.....all those poor manipulated squaddies who went "over the top" in WWI were there at the behest of the whinnying classes........who was it who suffered in The Depression? Look at the paintings of medieval London and the Gin Palaces...the tatty kids....the bare-bosomed women lost to Drink.....there's always an underclass, it just adapts to the society that it's in. It's how that society deals with them that is significant.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
9 December 2008
22:4510696Sid
I do understand where our coming from, but there is a general fear for people to be able to speak out.
I know this from the time Asylum was at its height in priory,
I held a public meeting in the ward and many leading people in the District tried to talk me out of it
but it was held and most people went away better informed and happier.
We do have problems, and DC will sadly play party politics,but thats the way.
what we do need is conservative solutions then maybe people will listen.
at the mo iv had conservative friends tell me they won be voting cos DC is such a poor leader.
that is there choice, but it does show there is a rea world out there.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
10 December 2008
09:5910715Sid, be honest, you would have made your 'empty' critisism whatever DC said and in that you are merely following the absurd Labour spin line of 'do nothing'....
The other title of the Prime Minister is First Lord of the Treasury and as DC is very likely to be PM within 18 months it is right that he speak about financial matters when asked to address the London School of Economics.
There is no doubt at all that we have a broken society. We see it all the time with the high levels of drug use and an education system creaking under the strain placed upon it by ill disciplined and feral children. That is not to say that all children are feral, it is a minority, but they are having a disproportionate impact on the majority of well behaved and decent kids. The amount of resources school are having to devote to this is stunning, social workers, 'pastorial managers' and specialist teachers all employed in schools just to deal with the problem. In my generation schools had teachers, head teachers, school secretaries, caretakers, cleaners and that was it! Behave badly and you were strapped over the hand or in worse cases sent to the head to be caned and that was enough to deal with problems. It was a far healthier system back then.
Indeed there are also 'feral' adults, many of who have no job and have no intention of ever earning a honest wage, some are third generation scroungers in families with no-one gainfully employed. They breed children (often many by many different fathers) who have no idea of what it is to have asperationss and to know work forming future generations of useless layabouts and maybe criminals.
This is the broken society and this cycle of dependancy and scrounging must be finished with.
Keith once again you apply a double standard accusing DC of playing party politics, but you seem to think it OK for Gordon Brown to do this, after all the whole income tax fiasco earlier in the year was brought about simply because he was 'playing politics' and trying to wrong foot the opposition.
The fact is we have a serious economic situation in the UK. We are the first into recession and are likely to be the last out of it. Brown claims to be some kind of 'great saviour' but not all countries are being foolish enough to follow his lead. The Germans for instance, to them he is a joke.
It is entirely as a result of his economic mis-management that we are the worse hit of any G8 nation. The latest independent forcasts show just how excessively optimistic the Treasury forcasts are and what an increasingly desperate economic situation we are in.
Only a madman can believe that you can just keep borrowing to get you out of trouble. Sometime the debt has to be paid back and the tax rises aleady announced will be imposed on a fragile economy, at a time when it may be coming out of recession. I have said before that a 'double-dip' recession is increasingly likely.
That emergency budget (that is what it was) is falling apart already. Darling has already admitted that what he did is not likely to work. The VAT decrease was exactly the wrong way to try to stimulate spending and a temporary 13 month period is simply daft. His income tax rises on those earning over £100k will not generate a penny extra revenue for the Treasury. Independent modelling of the effect of this demonstrates that, indeed there is a risk that it will decrease tax revenues. Make no mistake more tax rises on middle earners will have to follow to repay this massive debt.
David Cameron has an uncomfortable message but it is the right one. We must live within our means. The Government must get a grip on spending and that is the essential core to his message.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
10 December 2008
11:0310721barry thers no garentee that dc will win the next genral election life and voters are both fickle as well you know.
Sid Pollitt
10 December 2008
15:3810729My point about Cameron's speech was that it lacked substance, which it did. His remedies sound alarm bells to me and his spin annoys me so I do try for my own soundbite-phrases to describe Davey Do-Nowt and his mates, but I do not follow any party line and I certainly do not receive or recycle party spin.
Cameron's discription of a broken society does us all a dis-service. The Children of Courage awards were proudly presented today to kids playing their part in our nation.
James Purnell speaking in the HoC today described the Tory Party so-called modernation as a spray job. Was it a re-spray, a con-job or plain dishonesty? The Tories have spent the past few years saying that they're not the nasty party anymore but their remedies look like the old medicine of the past. To highlight the return to their less than cuddly past one of their own post here of feral adults, scroungers and useless layabouts. The public face of caring conservatism?
If the Tories are not, as they have claimed, a modern political party for all the people then they should have the honesty to say so.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
10 December 2008
17:1310736Sid - you may not like straight talking and may think it modern and caring to hide the truth about those who leach on society but I do not. I prefer the real world and describe wasters as they are and not pretend that they are anything else. That is not old fashioned but realistic and telling it as it is.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
10 December 2008
17:1810738barry are you saying or admitting that david cameron is a waster.
Sid Pollitt
10 December 2008
17:4110743Straight talking from the Tories? Yes please. Can you confirm that you are returning to being the nasty party and the caring conservatism was a con?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
10 December 2008
17:4610746So you think it is nasty to identify those who leach on society, Sid. Fine, so be it - you can be all sympathetic to them if you wish and the voters will run a mile from you.
Sid Pollitt
10 December 2008
17:5410748I have no voters to get close to myself. The thing is to, in my opinion, help people and not to demonise and scaremonger. Barry are you saying that if we called it tough, rather than nasty, you'd want to tackle those that you see leach on society? Does that therefore mean that the claims to be caring by the Tories over the past few years were either a smokescreen or deception?
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
11 December 2008
08:0010796What has "nasty" to do with ridding the benefit system of useless people, people who have no intention of working ?
James Purnell has announced a program of (benefits) reform that should go a long way to reduce the amount of scroungers we have and get people working for the money they receive - are you going to call Labour the nasty party ? - no of course you aren't, so why call the Tories nasty because they want the same thing; in fact I believe, they brought this up years ago.
It should be brought in now though, not a year's time.
Roger
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
11 December 2008
10:5610815Peer Steinbruck, who is the German finance minister from the Social Democrat member of their coalition government (not a Conservative) has commented on Brown's economic policy most unfavourably. In fact Brown has had a lot of digs from the German media of late and I am sure his latest faux pas will be played over there too.....
Anyway to quote Mr Steinbruck.
"All this will do is raise Britain's debt to a level that will take a whole generation to work off"
He goes on to pour water over the whole Keynseyan fiscal package that Brown has produced. He also said: "When I ask about the origins of the crisis, economists I respect tell me it is the credit-financed growth of recent years and decades. Isn't this the same mistake everyone is suddenly making again, under all the public pressure?"
There you have it from a leading European left winger....
Sid Pollitt
11 December 2008
12:3810818So can we gather from the last two posts that the Tories claims to be a caring, modern party were just a slight of hand then? Nasty or not, they were using spin at best and were not being honest to the electorate. That report/ posturing by Ian Duncan Smith was just for show then.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
11 December 2008
13:2010819I found the IDS report hilarious, a clear demonstration of not understanding the demographic it is attempting to reform.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
11 December 2008
20:4510843i was disappointed with ian duncan smith report, i think that he is an intelligent chap.
i doubt that the published report was what he originally wrote.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
11 December 2008
23:0910851I doubt whether DT and howard have actually ready it. You certainly do not demonstrate that you have.
