Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#1
I have just read a fascinating article by Philip Johnson in the Telegraph. It plots the source of todays attitudes towards politicians and the dire state of our politics.
Some paragraphs particularly caught my eye - here are some extracts:
(Referring to the 1997 Labour landslide) """This brought into office a fundamentally different administration from any seen since the early 20th century. Because Labour had been out of office for so long, none of the senior Cabinet posts was occupied by anyone with experience of governing.
Furthermore, Labour came to power sporting a sneer for the nation's institutions and a swaggering determination to smash them......
........Inexperience linked to a disproportionately large parliamentary majority was a dangerous concoction. Labour then set about undermining another bulwark of the system, the Civil Service. After 18 years of resentment about its treatment at the hands of what it considered to be a predominantly Tory-supporting media, Labour also believed that Whitehall was stuffed full of conservatives, both with a small and large "C", who would resist the "reforms" they wanted to push through that turned out to be nothing of the sort.
This involved the introduction on an industrial scale of management consultants to provide advice once given by civil servants. A baleful consequence of this was the imposition of a target culture that stifled local decision making, removed discretion, cost the earth and suffocated common sense.
This machinery has been presided over by a Chancellor-cum-Prime Minister so convinced of his own rectitude that he considers himself entitled to waste vast sums of our money and then to demand that we thank him for doing so. To listen to Gordon Brown in the Commons last week merrily rattling off the public spending totals for the next few years - "£672bn, £702bn, £717bn, £738bn, £758bn" - as though this rate of increase were either sensible or even possible - was to wonder at man's capacity for self-delusion.
Combined with a predisposition to micro-manage individual behaviour and ride roughshod over ancient liberties, it is hardly surprising that democracy and freedom are once again subjects to be tackled by political writers. It is a debate we have had before and presumed settled; but we reckoned without the damage it was possible to cause in just a dozen years.""""""""""""""
So much of the above rang true to me. I think we can all see the truth behind the way 'cool Britannia' undermined our traditions alongside stifling political correctness and the madness of multiculturalism, matters not touched on by this article but certainly back up his arguments.
The full article is here
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/philipjohnston/5538179/The-rot-that-set-in-as-New-Labour-took-root.html#2
Style over substance is never going to have longevity, especially in politics. We never warmed to Blair, mistrusted his angles, were unimpressed by his "charm". But he was the better alternative back then after the bitter years of Thatcher et al. Or so we thought..........there were no real socialist options, although the re-packaged Noo Labour, Cool Britannia as you say, was disappointing to say the least and had clearly set its cap at a different path from the grassroots pathway. And whatever shade of politics you are, I am sure we all know that grassroots are the fundamentals of politics.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#3
interesting points Bern. While I could never support the election of a Labour Government I would agree that sadly John Major's government was tired in 1997 and did deserve a good kicking. Retrospectively, I think it would have been better for the UK if Major had lost in 1992 (better for both the Labour Party and, more importantly from my point of view, the Conservative Party too, in the long run....)
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#4
BERN/bAZ
off go the telegraph labour bashing again, hope they do a good job on the conservatives no policy/10% cameron
Whilst I'm no fan of BLAIR As Bern said it was the best we had at the time.
Blair would have fitted in to many tory p;arty machineries.
On politics in general, I have posted before on this, Blair knew Labour was unelectable at that time with the socialist viewpoint and needed middle England vote. He set about destroying as much as poss old labour and put in place the new labour machinery.
He did well for many in the time he was in office and im sure he was dedicated to what he believed in(whatever that was)
Tories now also looking at middle so next general election will be interesting.
Lib Dems don't seem to making much ground even tho Clegg comes across well.
I am, and always will be a socalist
lets hope politics gets better
#5
Strangely, although I am at heart a socialist (I loathe Thatcher, like Michael Foot, Denis Healy and Tony Benn, so am a pretty hopelsess case!) I can quite happily see the value of a wide stratum of political thought - have never had much time for the dogmatic Party-Line stuff. The Guardian and the Telegraph are both great papers, I have loved the way the Telegraph (Torygraph as we know it) has waded into the Government and the Opposition equally, upturned the beast and revealed the infected and weeping underbelly. Of all shades!!! I rather think the pick n mix view of politics that I am increasingly drawn to is the way forward.............
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#6
BERN
Ay and thats good, but there will also be us die hard Socialists to which im proud to one of the few, and right wing tories lik our baz.
Thats not as I say that we do not agree on some issues cos we do.
Sometimes its about how you achieve things.
Iv seen many council meetings where if you were an outsider watching you would not know which party was which.
It Is at end of day getting what is best for DOVER.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#7
Good point Keith. Often we will want to same result (full employment, greater prosperity for all and so on) the disagreements come in as to how best to achieve the same objective.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#8
YEP baz, asight wing as you are, there are subjects we are very close on, as i mentioned before, the benefits, i look outside the labour box<
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#9
getting back to the 1997 massacre, the country then was relieved to see the back of john major's goverment.
result a massive majority, no real opposition, thus an arrogant government.
if an election was called now, the situation would be the same in reverse.
that is why it is right for gordon brown to hang on until next may.
the popularity of labour is at an all time low, by then it will not be as bad, hence a stronger opposition in the commons.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#10
My concern is the damage being done to the country by delaying any attempt to get to grips with the national debt.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#11
howard
as iv said labour is,and will rrebuild and the tories won't get in that easy its still going to be a close call labour will out there amongst it.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#12
the resession seems to have bottomed out and the gdp is looking better and climeing along with morgetiges riseing.the only draw back is the greedy oil barrons of opec keeping there oill prices up.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#13
Quite a lot to overcome, but at some point the tories will have a policy then people will start to realise about mr 10%
quite liked thsat little comment
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#14
Quite a lot to overcome, but at some point the tories will have a policy then people will start to realise about mr 10%
quite liked that little comment
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#15
barry
the problem is not just the debt, but where the cuts will be made.
a rushed election would not bring out the truth.
the public will have a chance to listen to the arguments over the next year and draw their own conclusions.
you argue that defenece should be the sacred cow, the public may well go for health, education or pensions.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#16
and the public will also want to know about the 10% cuts what wiill cut and to wot limit
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#17
The 10% Keith are the Labour cuts. I sincerely hope the Conservatives will cut a lot more as that is the responsible thing to do.
I am not talking about 'wants' in respect of what should not be cuts, I am referring to duty. The Defence budget is the only part of public expenditure not to have benefitted from Labour's spending spree. We are also at war in an increasingly dangerous world. To cut Defence would be a dereliction of duty by any Government. The first and more important duty of any Government is national defence and you cannot get that on the cheap. It takes consistent investment over years to maintain a proper defence profile, cut that and you will lose capability that you will not quickly get back (if ever) in response to an emergency.
Howard the debt is a serious problem that will hamstring any recovery.
Brian - I am preparing to give a talk to a series of four seminars being held on Wednesday to an invited business audience in Canterbury. I have therefore been conducting up to date research into the latest thinking economic situation. I need to inform you that the economy has slowed its decline and may be bumping along at the bottom but no real economic growth is expected until early 2010 and then the recovery will be painfully slow.
Thanks to the flexible labour market (one of Mrs T's achievements) and the willingness of private sector employees to take pay cuts, the recession will not meet the worse expectations, but unemployment is still expected to peak at over 3million next year. Put simply people have saved their own jobs by co-operating with their employers.
It is a pity that the public sector has not been offered the opportunity to act in the same responsible way, if they had we might get an even faster recovery once it does take off.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#18
ITS going to be a grim year or 5 if yor lot are allowed to cut us to te bone and no doubt unemployment will shoot upto 3 million again
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#19
Crossed posts Keith. Yes thanks to Labour's policies unemployment is shooting up to over 3 million (CBI latest forecast, this is actually slightly better than their last one, see my post above.)
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,709
#20
Again (is this becoming a habit?) I have to agree (well sort of) with Barry, the 10% cut that is getting bandied about is based on NuLab's own figures but after taking account of DC's vow to ring fence NHS spending on top of the areas NuLab have promised to ring fence. Even on Darling's own numbers the government will need to make cuts of 7% outside of their ring fenced departments, oh and that includes health spending.
So irrespective of which tawdry mob win the next election it is going to be painful if you are a civil servant or a customer of one or more of the departments of state,
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi