howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Courtesy of the Times.
Police could be given tougher powers to target travellers and Gypsies after nearly 4,000 caravans were found on unauthorised sites across the country. Dominic Raab, the housing minister, said that he was “deeply troubled” by allegations about the behaviour of travellers and “particularly by the widespread perception that the rule of law does not apply to those who choose a nomadic lifestyle”.
He will launch a consultation today looking at police and council powers, court processes, government guidance, the provision of legal sites and their impact on settled communities. It will be carried out jointly by the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice. In the foreword Mr Raab said he was determined to address the complaint “that available enforcement powers do not protect settled communities adequately”. The traveller caravan count, which is published annually by the government, found that the number of traveller caravans on authorised sites rose from about 14,500 in July 2010 to 19,000 in July last year, an increase of 32 per cent. The figures also show a significant number of unauthorised encampments across England, accounting for 16 per cent of all caravans last summer.
The consultation says that unauthorised developments and encampments resulted in difficulties for settled communities, including trespassing, damage to property, extensive litter and waste, noise, and antisocial, abusive and threatening behaviour. Mr Raab told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “Provision of sites is part of the solution but I think there will be a significant minority who are not going to adhere to the rules, who are not going to be directed to authorised sites. We need to make sure the enforcement powers are there to deal with that, both so that the majority of travellers don’t find their reputation tarnished but also to deal with the understandable frustration that settled communities have with the illegal incursions and some of the antisocial behaviour that comes with it.”
Under the consultation, trespass laws could be tightened to bring them closer into line with those in Ireland. Aggravated trespass is a criminal offence in England, applicable when people trespass on land and intimidate the landowner or others, and is punishable by up to three months in prison. In Ireland it is an offence for any person to enter and occupy land without the owner’s permission, or bring any object on to the land, if this is likely to “substantially damage” the land or interfere with it. The act also gives Irish police discretion to direct trespassers to leave land if they suspect that this offence is being committed. Failure to comply with a direction is punishable by a fine and/or one-month prison sentence. The consultation also aims to find out why local authorities are not using existing powers to bring civil injunctions to protect land, and whether it is possible to speed up the court process to evict trespassers.
The government document acknowledges that Gypsy, Roma and traveller communities are among the most disadvantaged in British society and suffer multiple forms of discrimination. Studies show that they have the lowest attainment of all ethnic groups throughout their school years, have a life expectancy of more than 10 per cent less than the general population and poor health.
Yvonne MacNamara, chief executive of the Traveller Movement, said: “The Traveller Movement hope that this consultation addresses and deals with the lack of authorised and safe sites available to the Gypsy and traveller community. “A lack of funding and political will over many years has perpetuated a severe shortage of sites, which in turn has perpetuated illegal encampments with nowhere else to go.”
John Buckley
- Registered: 6 Oct 2013
- Posts: 615
“The government document acknowledges that Gypsy, Roma and traveller communities are among the most disadvantaged in British society and suffer multiple forms of discrimination.”
“Discrimination”? Very strange, I wonder why that would be?
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Dominic Raab, the housing minister, said that he was “deeply troubled” by allegations about the behaviour of travellers and “particularly by the widespread perception that the rule of law does not apply to those who choose a nomadic lifestyle”.
Perception? Russell Street car park was one that played to non paying nomads who left their rubbish behind after leaving on many occasions.
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Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,026
Perhaps Mr Rabb meant that the perception was widespread amongst those who chose a nomadic lifestyle.
(Not my real name.)
Andy B
- Location: dover
- Registered: 10 Nov 2012
- Posts: 1,740
If i dumped my rubbish in the car park i,d be surely done for flytipping yet they can dump there rubbish and get it cleared for free no questions asked.
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Pablo- Registered: 21 Mar 2018
- Posts: 614
Unlikely Andy. Out of well over a million reported flytipping incidents in 2017, only about 1500 were prosecuted in magistrates’ courts. That’s about a 700 to 1 chance. The average fine imposed in 2013-14 (the last year I can find figures for) was £140.78. With Biffa charging a minimum of £58+VAT to tip small amounts of commercial waste up at Whitfield, I leave you to do the cost-benefit analysis of a profitable flytipping business.
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Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,796
I always feel sorry for farmers and other land owners who have to pay for the fly tipped rubbish to be removed when it is dumped on their land.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Captain Haddock
- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,921
Even better in Deal. Having had problems with various vagrants sleeping and c**pping and pi **ssing in the Undercroft at the Town Hall (and what's not to like? People bring you sleeping bags and food and the local PCSO checks you are tucked in at night and you are the centre of attention and everybody feels very sorry for you and it was probably all Mrs Thatcher's fault) the Council spend £16,000 on lockable gates to make our lovely TownHall look like a baroque version of Belmarsh Prison.
Unfortunately no one has sorted out to do with you once the gates are up so the gates remain wide open and three times a week a rather expensive cleaner turns up in a bio-hazard suit to disinfect the area around the bench you are sleeping on so that the stench of p*ss and cr*p does not put off those buying cakes from the market stalls!
Brilliant.
"Shall we go, you and I, while we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds"
Weird Granny Slater
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,002
Back on topic. I am surprised that travellers induce such enmity simply for failing to dispose of their rubbish responsibly; plenty of folks do the same (someone left a dead fridge and some boxes of broken toys beside my garden wall not so long ago, and it wasn't a traveller) and there's already legislation to deal with it if any of the relevant authorities can be bothered to call on it. Travelling sure is a different life, and it's not for everyone. But if your choice is to keep moving, why shouldn't you be able to? After all, freedom of choice is, apparently, fundamental to our current governing ideology.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
I doubt if anyone would wish to deny someone the right to have a nomadic lifestyle, what is objectionable is trespass and/or criminal damage and leaving a mess for others to clear up.
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Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,796
There are many different kinds of travellers, some are fine while others are awful.
I remember back in the mid 1990s we had a group of hippy travellers living in woodland near the pub, the village could not wait for them to go and made life difficult for them. We had no trouble from them as customers, in fact they asked if they could fill their water containers rather than just taking it. Some were ex professional men and very well educated, they also policed their group so they caused no problem at all. There was another group I think it was Guston area who caused no end of problems for some with their defecating and rubbish.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Andy B- Location: dover
- Registered: 10 Nov 2012
- Posts: 1,740
I,m all for alternative lifestyles whether it be new age hippys,travellers,etc i,m all for it 100%.I really do not manage the bricks n mortar, 9 till 5 type of lifestyle very well at all. I just dont think that the travellers that choose to dump all there crap everywere help themselves or their cause one little bit.Its little wonder that theres so much ill feeling towards them.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Just heard that a group have moved into a car park opposite the Drop Redoubt up the Western Heights.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
if that's st. martins battery car park its height restricted. unless they knocked it down.
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Guest 1713- Registered: 14 Mar 2016
- Posts: 110
Yep true spoke to them today not a bad bunch who are moving off by Thursday apparently
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Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,921
"Shall we go, you and I, while we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds"
John Buckley- Registered: 6 Oct 2013
- Posts: 615
Personally I feel sorry for the people who own the fence that is gradually being ruined by the deadbeat’s friends and family. But no doubt the police will soon step in to stop this happening?!
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
The police are turning themselves into a laughing stock now describing the burglar's death as a tragedy and warning people they could get arrested by damaging the shrine.
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Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,855
The Hither green case is a good example of where society is going wrong.
The guy that died was in an OAP home attempting to raid his home
and it appears had a life long history of targeting senior citizens.
Now it's tragic a guy has died but he was trespassing and attempted to steal.
the shrine is an insult to the OAP who fought back
is it just me who feels this way?
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ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
John Buckley- Registered: 6 Oct 2013
- Posts: 615
I don’t think “society” is particularly going wrong Keith, just the idiots in charge of us that have all been on the various prescribed PC courses in order to tick box their way up the career ladder.
The very same people that actually consider the low life in question to be the victim in all of this.
It’s a strange world we live in eh?
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