Weird Granny Slater
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 2,989
Since there's obviously much interest in this subject, and many forum members have on other threads already made a number of intelligent contributions that are obviously the result of much deep and serious critical thought, perhaps we should award it its own thread.
I'll start by saying that if anyone thinks Blairism is the way to go for Labour then you haven't been taking much notice of what's been going on. We already have it. It's called Boris Johnson.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,790
I doubt Tony Blair and his style of politics would be at all happy to be compared to Boris's.
I f Labour wants to be in power I think the last GE and even the previous one have proved that Corbyn's way is the wrong way for the majority of voters.
Whoever takes over they need charisma in front of the camera for those who only have an interest in politics at voting time.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,009
So far as the title of the thread is concerned, then, sadly, I think Jan has hit the nail on the head: "Whoever takes over they need charisma in front of the camera for those who only have an interest in politics at voting time."
So far as "ism"s are concerned, eg. (WGS) "I'll start by saying that if anyone thinks Blairism is the way to go for Labour...", then I would suggest that Labour starts by ascertaining why they lost the GE, since it is possible that significant numbers of voters treated it as a second EU referendum and didn't find Labour's stance on that particular subject credible, as distinct from finding their other policies incredible.
(Not my real name.)
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,845
Can't say I'm that interested apart needing an effective opposition
. Labour should of course be looking at why it lost so many seats
Brexit was partly to blame as well as not able to convince people of its leader
Moving to the right or middle England where Blair picked up votes
Wasnt a socialist agenda and lots left the party
And the incoming members didn't canvass
So they lost the foot soldiers.
It looks like the left agenda is not what people want but maybe if brexit is solved by next GE
then maybe trying the left agenda without the Brexit distraction may do better
One thing is clear its going to take labour a long time to get the trust of the people again
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Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 2,989
Jan Higgins wrote:I doubt Tony Blair and his style of politics would be at all happy to be compared to Boris's.
Well, I wasn't referring to Blair's 'style' so much as his substance (if that's not too inappropriate a word for that most transparent of men). I'll explain what I meant.
Blair moved Labour rightwards on economic policy (globalist, neoliberal capitalism) and foreign policy (neocon); Johnson will complete the Cameron project of moving the Conservatives leftwards on social policy (e.g. multiculturalism, PC). They meet in the 'centre'.
(I'm not fooled by Johnson's use of the odd provocative non-PC epithet or trope: he knows how to keep the Right onside, and these are tactical deployments. Johnson's nothing if not flexible. Hence his 2016 EU
volte face; he knew which way the wind was blowing and hoist up his sails to catch it. Power's the objective; political yes, but on behalf of corporate.)
Lastly, crucially, Blair's Campbell's soup of spin, mendacity, news management, briefings, client journalists and playing the media so it dances to your tune. But Campbell was a novice compared to contemporary political strategists. And with social media they have inexhaustible artillery. The dirty way didn't always work out for Crosby, but Levido's victories here and in Australia prove that it's easier to box an election if you rig the ring.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,295
Important now for Labour to move on from Corbyn. Corbyn, and his vision, have been roundly rejected and it would be madness for Labour to ignore the scale of defeat. The country wasn't ready for such a shift to the left.
As to where next, I definitely think Brexit is being overplayed, but even so, it's done now - we're leaving and the political spotlight will move to future arrangements. Boris is already grandstanding to the gallery and I think many have forgotten the potential pitfalls of leaving the EU without any agreement. For me, it has to be Kier Starmer; he has the charisma and intellect to take on Boris but also gets it on the broader picture. I also think it's patronising to talk of the north needing a northerner - there's nothing northern about Boris Johnson!
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,790
Neil Moors wrote: I also think it's patronising to talk of the north needing a northerner - there's nothing northern about Boris Johnson!
I agree especially as so many businesses are being encouraged to move north resulting in a lot of "southerners" and ex northerners moving north.
Keir Starmer seems good in front of a camera so might have the much needed charisma. A lot will depend on how close his views are to those of Corbyn and the same goes for any of the present shadow cabinet.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,009
Uh, that would be Mr "Customs Union" Starmer, would it?
(Not my real name.)
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,295
That's my point, Button. Brexit is done - Labour no longer need to worry about customs unions and the like. The job now is to find the right leader and wait until Boris messes up....
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,009
Neil Moors wrote:Brexit is done - Labour no longer need to worry about customs unions and the like.
Well, technically it is, I suppose - Brexit being leaving the EU, ie. the Withdrawal Agreement. And yes, I suppose Labour doesn't have to worry about customs unions or any other form of relationship with the EU.
Although a Customs Union is one of several tenable relationships with the EU, that Mr Starmer - having visited Dover no less - reckoned it would enable frictionless trade across borders doesn't say much for his grasp of important subjects.
(Not my real name.)
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,845
The Labour Party has to get through to its membership that changes are required
OK so brexit we will pull out in whatever fashion
Labour will hopefully come good on other issues.
As to which leader none suggest wanting to move to far away from where the party presently is
The danger there is the party has the support of the members
But not Many others
I'm not sure any of the contenders are likely to rebuild the party but there again we are looking at 25 years before labour gets a sniff of number 10 then only if they start working in the communities now.
Being nice (which was said of C C) or in front of TV cameras doesn't win elections
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,295
The thing that's always baffled me, Keith - the fact that Labour doesn't appear to be particularly concerned with getting elected! Right now it's a cult - I just hope for the sake of good opposition it re-emerges stronger from this defeat.
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 2,989
Neil Moors wrote:The country wasn't ready for such a shift to the left.
That depends on what you mean by 'left', of course. But if that direction were to include public ownership of railways, mail and utilities, then that in itself is a popular policy, and has been consistently so over a number of years.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/05/19/nationalisation-vs-privatisation-public-view
On Corbyn. His public tendency was for compromise. Fine in many areas of life; even in politics. But in this election it came over as uncertainty, ambiguity, lack of commitment, maybe opportunism or even cowardice. Rather than go bare-knuckle against the tide of hoaxes, defamations and calumnies that came his way from CCHQ, press and media (anti-semite, terrorist sympathiser etc.), he stayed in his corner.
The next leader should bruise, grab throats, command the stage, turn a phrase. No-one from the law or business (over-represented), no effete Oxbridge type or plummy Londoner (enough of those in government). Someone raised in the coalfields, steel working, car manufacturing; someone who came up through union ranks; someone used to hard work, scrapping and defending his (or her) pitch. Someone like Nye Bevan. Oh, wait a minute… Thatcher killed them all.
Better, perhaps, to go, ala Johnson, for a free-flowing liar:
https://theconversation.com/why-people-vote-for-politicians-they-know-are-liars-128953'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Captain Haddock
- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,892
All I know is that the mother of my children keeps telling me to 'take that insufferable f***ing smug grin off your face'.
It's been there a week now.
"Shall we go, you and I, while we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds"
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 2,989
Must be rigor mortis.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,892
John McDonnell has told shadow cabinet colleagues to stop asking him "are you alright?", telling them:
"Normally when a socialist revolution fails they all get taken to a football stadium and shot, at least that hasn’t happened this time.”
(Jim Pickard - Chief Political Correspondent, Financial Times)
"Shall we go, you and I, while we can? Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds"
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,845
Thankfully the leading lights in the party have owned up to the present disaster
Even locally life long labour voters told me they voted tory over Brexit and Labour so inconsistent and to left
That's why unknown mrs Elphicke doubled the majority.
It was a disaster in Dover and that's an uphill climb to claw back 12,000
But supporters of lab canvassing in my road admitted they response on the doorstep was poor so they probably knew they were in for a pounding
Like you say Niel we need an effective opposition to hold Bungling Boris to account
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 2,989
Frankly, most people wouldn't be able to tell their left from their right if Joe Bugner turned up on their doorstep and showed them. Culturally, socially and, in many respects, economically, we're further 'left' than we've ever been. That was Blair's achievement. Subsequent Tories were happy to continue it. And Johnson has no intention of reversing it (despite his 'immigration' moments). That makes the Tories a 'left' party, right? It's just that nobody told you. Tribalism makes people not see what's in front of their noses.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Pablo- Registered: 21 Mar 2018
- Posts: 614
This left/right thing is relative. The received wisdom in the UK is that the Tories are a right wing party. Compare their policies to those of the two main American parties and you will actually find that the Democrats (which by convention are regarded as the more leftish of the two) actually occupy similar ground to UKIP/Brexit Party and the Republicans’ outlook on life is more akin to that of the BNP.
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Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,845
Weird
We will have to agree to disagree
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS