Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
10 December 2009
22:2134720You speak as if private companies are something from an alien world howard. It really is nothing to be scared of despite what the nasty socialists say....
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
10 December 2009
22:4234722Howard you are so right about that,the sell off would mean that the new owners geting cheap labour from over seas.
I have told you on the forum over the last two years or more that most of the big building sites around the U.K. are doing just that, I have worked on some of them sites and most do not even talk English, and just bed down at nights where they are working,if we done that we would be told to get off site.
We must get back to English jobs for English workers, some will say "All you care about is looking after NO1"
And I say this to that "To look after NO2 you have to look after NOI first or there will not be a NO2.
We all put into one pot and take out from that one pot, but with workers from overseas that does not happen they take it out of the pot then send it back to their own homes overseas so you see it does not go back into the pot, in the end there is more taking out of the pot then puting in and that is what going on today.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
10 December 2009
22:5534724vic
you are spot on there, that is how i see the future with dover port under private ownership.
barry
i think that answers your question.
before my time here, the ferry companies were mainly staffed by people from dover and east kent, over the years the shift patterns changed so that anyone around the country would have to make only one return journey every week or fortnight.
the town will only suffer more from privatisation, at present most port staff live locally and spend locally.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
10 December 2009
23:0134726I agree that Gwyn is really out of touch. The picture says it all: an A3 printout (from the Coombe Valley printer) attached to a piece of 20x90 timber from B&Q. A sad attempt at the symbolism of prolatariat discontent, by one man smiling on top of the cliffs at the nearest point to the car park. Who advises these people?
However I would like to say that if you support the free market, market forces and Global Capitalism you can't really oppose this kind of action or 'Joining Europe' unless you really accept the reality of Conservatism....it's really just about exploitation!
Rick, what's bad? How about I set up to take all your clients, undercut you as a professional and get 3 people in a developing country to do your job for a fraction of the price? (please bear in mind this is no personal attack as I highly regard your work (as I do that of DHB workers))
I find it amusing that you can't be Conservative and conservative at the same time!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
10 December 2009
23:0634727i must admit i smiled at the pitiful placard, very 1970's, no disrespect to our honourable member intended.
what intrigues me is who the potential buyer is, the government say that talks are advanced.
could it be the same people that keep buying airports?
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,698
11 December 2009
00:5034741I personally do not believe that the sell off of the port will benefit Dover in the slightest. Whichever party is in government they will trouser all the money from a sale to go to reduce the current national debt. Further the town will lose out as any purchaser will look to limit costs through lay-offs, wage caps etc. and possibly increasing berthing fees leading to higher fares etc. and the consequences that may bring.
I would love to have the faith in private capital that the likes of Barry and others do, however all the experience from the sale of other Trust Ports shows what I have described above
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
11 December 2009
06:2634744It amuses me how people are reacting so hysterically, jumping to conclusions and being luddite.
Personally I remain fully in favour of privatisation but just wish it was to be done on the terms offered for the Conservatives in 2005, it would have been far better for Dover than Labour rock bottom fire sale just to clear debt.
Silly and absurd claims on this forum suggest that there is something inferior about a privatised port. Utter rubbish is being spoken, the Poles who I see every morning returing home from their night shift being one piece of evidence.
Silly scare stories put about by people who should know better simply obscure sensible debate.
Dover receives little in benefit from the Port now. The jobs wont go away and neither will they be more vulnerable to overseas workers than they are now either.
The Port need not be sold to any one owner like Dubai Ports. What is wrong with shares being sold to employees, others Port employers and employees and a 'golden share' being offered to local people. The balance could be offered to institutions via flotation. This would provide massive benefit to us in Dover and I would certainly be a buyer.
It would be far more sensible for Gwyn Prosser and Charlie Elphicke to join forces with Paul Watkins to negotiate the best possible deal for the employees and Dover. Being Canute-like will not do Dover any good in the long term. Constructive co-operation and engagement would be better and a more practical approach. This is made more complex by the General Election and this will get heated but we need to think of Dover first.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
11 December 2009
07:1234745Lets put aside the political point scoring and remember that the Port of Dover is a Trust set up King James 1 and granted Royal Charter in 1606 it is a statutory body and has no shareholders.What gives us the power,as temporary custodians and fleecing moments on this earth,and the right to change something that has operated for over 400 years for the sake of a quick buck.None we have no right to plunder and sell off our national heritage or family silver.
Once sold it will never return and shareholders will want to see a return on their investments ..profit will come before people.How will future generations view our decisions? probably as small minded and reckless.
No we should not sell off our port to greedy foreign investors but work more closely with DHB to improve the transport links and keep this vital artery where it was always meant to be as a trust for the people.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
11 December 2009
08:2334752IM HAPPY TO HEAR bARRYS views on the port saga, as paulb says it was an emotive issue at the last general election.
Obviously im in the camp that think Gwyn has done a fair job, but thats neither here nor there.
Gwyn always has opposed the sell off of the port and im sure always will.
and to be fair Barryw and paulw have wanted to sell port off and thats pure choice.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
11 December 2009
10:3134759As I have said Marek, using silly and emotive expression like 'sell the port to greedy foreign investors' does not add to any kind of intelligent debate and does not help get the best deal for local people. That is what is needed.
Guest 684- Registered: 26 Feb 2009
- Posts: 635
11 December 2009
12:3434763Totally with Barry on this one. We need to open our eyes and minds.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
11 December 2009
13:3534768we have no idea who will buy and what their plans would be, very difficult to open our eyes and minds to anything.
i would genuinely like to hear any positive reasons that we should be grateful, but have not heard anything.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
11 December 2009
14:4534769The Governments motives are clear Howard, to raise cash to pay off some of Brown's borrowing.
From the DHB point of view I would presume more commercial flexibility might be the answer.
From a Dovorian's point of view, I would like to see the Port contribute more to the town, certainly more than it has done in the past. For one thing I would like to see DDC being able to do road pricing on Port traffic.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
12 December 2009
02:4734781BarryW
As usual you have failed to address the points raised in my posting.
What right do any of us have to flog off something that was left in trust? Are we not betraying that trust?As for foreign investors ..who else do you think could or would buy the Port of Dover should it be put on the market.Don't go for soundbites address the issues.Then lets look at the security issues and the consequences of the Port falling into the control of a non co-operative,non EU state.
If we are unable to convince DHB to spend more and inter react with the town how do you expect to convince an absentee landlord to play more of an active role in local affairs.I regret to say that you are looking at the sale of the Port of Dover through very cloudy glasses and are failing to take into consideration the whole picture and the consequences.Forget about party politics and think as a Dovorian for a change.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
12 December 2009
08:4034787BarryW et al: it IS an emotive topic, although clearly needs intelligent debate. It is quite right that we feel strongly about it, and that should inform the outcome. There is more to commerce than profit and loss - something tesco and the like should acknowledge. The pile it high and shove it out appraoch, for instance, to shopping is killing casual interactions that stoke the fires of society. The feelings about the Port should similiaryl feed into the outcome.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
12 December 2009
10:4734803we seemed to have forgotten the bit about it being a trust port, thanks for that marek.
i can see the governments point of view, they can raise money without losing any votes.
the issue will not be noticed outside of dover, as we have seen in the past we get dignitaries of all colour come down here promise us the earth, then disappear as fast as they come.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
13 December 2009
20:4534847im with marek on post 34
Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
14 December 2009
11:3534870I fail to see any difference between the current Government selling off the port and a Tory proposal to sell it off four years ago, despite Barry's ludicrous attempt to lay the blame squarely at the door of No.10
Any attempt to buy the port by Dubai Ports would surely attract the attention of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission, since they already own P&O Ferries, and isn't Dubai as skint as the rest of the world? I believe that Abu Dhabi has just had to bail them out to the tune of several zillion.......
Finally, Barry, am I to understand that "Silly and absurd claims on this forum suggest that there is something inferior about a privatised port. Utter rubbish is being spoken, the Poles who I see every morning returing home from their night shift being one piece of evidence." from post #27 is a way of saying that Polish jobs are somehow more significant than jobs for people who actually live here? I'm struggling with a seemingly unintelligible set of double standards here: on the one hand you are saying that Polish jobs in a privatised Port of Dover are OK to live with, and on the other you're strenuously advocating that continued British membership of the EU needs looking at. I am genuinely confused here, it's not a political point scoring exercise at your expense, but how can you possibly advocate the use of cheap Eastern European labour whilst simultaneously advocate a withdrawal from the EU? The two surely don't go hand in hand, and I would have thought that the uppermost consideration for the Conservative Party to be reelected in the Dover & Deal constituency is to say 'keep jobs local'.
As Rick says, privatisation need not be the bete noire it's being touted as, but I strongly believe that our MPs stance of 'Dover is not for sale' is the right one. 400 years of history should not be abandoned because obscenely greedy money lenders in the City have bankrupted the country. I don't blame the Government for bailing the banks out - the Tories would presumably have had little choice but to do much the same thing - but your analogy of Labour's 'Fire Sale' of national assets (which I also believe is near the mark) cannot be allowed to go through without loud voices of dissention being heard.
True friends stab you in the front.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
14 December 2009
13:2434880to sum up your post andy, it seems to me that the port is being used for party political purposes and a bit of pre-election points scoring.
it is amazing how the main parties both have supported the bail out of the banks, the flogging off of national assets, wars all over the place, encouraging cheap foreign labour to keep wages down, plundreing expenses, then try to tell the public that they have nothing in common.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
14 December 2009
16:5934887You are clearly the one getting confused here Andy.
There is a huge difference between the proposals of 2005 and the present 'fire sale' just to clear debt. The fact is a Labour Government Minister was on TV advocating the privatisation last week.
No-one is suggesting Dubai Ports will buy the Port except scaremongers. There are a number of privatisation models that can be followed and I have suggested one that would not involved Dubai Ports or any other single company, British or foreign buying the Port. My suggestion is a share offering to Port employees, user firms and their employees plus a 'golden share' for the local community with the balance offered, not to a single company or even a consortium, but a flotation in the City with shares being purchased by pension funds and other institutional investorscas well as the public. This is why I believe that GP and PW, perhaps with CE involved too, would be better negotiating the best deal for Dover than simply opposing privatasation full stop.
In respect of the Polish workers I am merely pointing out that foreigners are employed in the Port now and there is nothing 'special' about a Trust Port compared to a privatised Port. They are both free to employ who they want. The Trust does not reserve Port jobs for British people and would not be allowed to under EU law. We have seen now that there is no special protection for British or local people when it somes to port employment as shown by recent controversies.
The whole point is that we are getting silly scare stories based on falsehoods and speculation. Fears of change are understandable but we must be realistic. DHB themselves have changed their tune since 2005 and Labour now want to privatise as well. Charlie is leading local Conservative opposition to a privatisation and I do not know where that will lead.
It is not up to me to defend the Labour Government's clearly stated policy of privatising the Port, its just that I have no philispohical opposition to such a move.
One further point. The bail-out is not just because of the bank debts, thats about £60bn out of £780bn or so. The deficit is caused by the overall economic mismanagement by the Government, who should have placed the UK is a better position to handle the recession by clearing debt during the good years, instead it just borrowed more. We had a structural debt at the beginning of the slowdown which is a massive economic mistake clearly as a result of Brown believing he had bannished boom and bust. We also have to remember that the regulatory changes made by Brown opened the way for the banks to behave the way they did. Plus, Brown made an error with the BoE inflation brief which ignored the levels of private and Government borrowing when setting interest rates. The fire sale is part of what the Government wants to do to help solve their 12/13 years of mismanagement overall.
