Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
watching news broadcasts over the last couple of days,and it sounds like israel has shot its self in the foot yet again.by boarding gazza aid ships in intrnational waters and killing nine [9] peoplle while doing so,i find this rather disgusting that this happens because one country dosent like the leadership of the other.and before anyone says that the palastinians are terraists think again.the question is why was this raid sangtioned in the fist place when all the ships where in international waters and doing no harm to any one.
United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS)
Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State. Such passage shall take place in conformity with this Convention and with other rules of international law.
Passage of a foreign ship shall be considered to be prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State if in the territorial sea it engages in any of the following activities
(a) any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal State, or in any other manner in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations;
(b) any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind;
(c) any act aimed at collecting information to the prejudice of the defence or security of the coastal State;
(d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State;
(e) the launching, landing or taking on board of any aircraft;
(f) the launching, landing or taking on board of any military device;
(g) the loading or unloading of any commodity, currency or person contrary to the customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations of the coastal State
Article 25. Rights of protection of the coastal State
1. The coastal State may take the necessary steps in its territorial sea to prevent passage which is not innocent.
2. In the case of ships proceeding to internal waters or a call at a port facility outside internal waters, the coastal State also has the right to take the necessary steps to prevent any breach of the conditions to which admission of those ships to internal waters or such a call is subject.
3. The coastal State may, without discrimination in form or in fact among foreign ships, suspend temporarily in specified areas of its territorial sea the innocent passage of foreign ships if such suspension is essential for the protection of its security, including weapons exercises. Such suspension shall take effect only after having been duly published.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
bob,it is a turkish ship on a peasefull mission,ie aid for the gazza strip.it was/still is crewed by a multi nataniol crew in this case 9 where killed.artical 2from the protection of coastal state covers it innocense.there is a number of brits moastly asian decent are now being held in camps,so where are there human rights,why cant they contact there famerlys or the british embassy,so again where is there basic human rights.this makes in my mind that this makes the israelies terraists.
Brian, to highlight the points above:-
Passage of a foreign ship shall be considered to be prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State if in the territorial sea it engages in any of the following activities
(d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State;
Were HAMAS to disarm and stop playing 'I'm the biggest victim in history' - result peace; were Israel to do the same - result annihilation of the Jewish State.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
brian makes a valid point about israel, they claimed that serious terrorists were on board.
laughable really, if they were dangerous terrorists, why were they ony armed with iron bars and knives?
One thing that confuses me having seen the film - The Israelis have an international reputation for professionalism in conflict incl their secret service. It seems that their "seal/sas" equivalent was engaged to board the ships.
What I saw was bungled in the extreme! First clear the landing area, then ensure that your team is together and able to defend itself with appropriate weapons and lastly, egress from a situation is the second most important consideration. How on earth did I see a soldier separated and thrown over a deck with what looked like his jacket falling off - and then weapons brought by the soldiers being used by their enemy against them. In my war scenario loss of your weapon to the enemy is the worst crime for a soldier!
As a son and father of soldiers I would be ashamed to witness such incompetence from our forces - or am I reading it wrong?
As to attacking any ship in international waters, I think as a country we should be silent!!!
D
Brian Dixon,
Well, well, well.I must congratulate you on your thorough grasp of the history of the arab Israeli conflict.
First of all it is perfectly obvious that yours is an emotional outburst totally unrelated to the reality of the situation. You really ought to take the time to sit down and read the history of the struggle between both parties involved. Having said that I would advise that you reserve several hours for the task as this particular piece of history goes back hundreds of years.
This constant struggle of the jewish state is partly down to our previous administration of the palestinian protectorate and also the outcome of the second world war.
As you probably know Germany did its level best to rid the world of the jewish people, WHY?? and consequently when the Jewish state was born in 1948 the surrounding arab states vowed to destroy it and that is the situation today.
How can any one in there right mind,never mind whether you like the jewish people or not consider such a policy to be morally right.?? The state of Israel is only doing what this country did in two world wars fighting to stay alive.
The arabs can afford the luxury of loosing several wars against the Israelis, on the other hand Israel cannot afford to loose one war against the arabs.
If that means that the israelis need to stop ships in international waters then if they feel threatened by there presence then that is there right .
One has to admire the courage and tenacity of a small nation of 5-6 million people surrounded by hundreds of millions hostile arabs who would slit there own mothers throat at the drop of a hat, for there determination to survive despite the constant attacks on them. They certainly show more courage than the british navy who in one instance allowed a boat load of armed sailors to be taken prisoner in the border waters between Iraq and Iran and not a shot was fired in there own defence. Instead we had the humiliation of seeing one of the captured sailors complaining that the Iranians stole his Ipod. Or if that is'nt enough ,how about a british naval vessal which stood by when two british pensioners were kidnapped from there yacht in the indian ocean and are still captive to this day. God knows what Lord Nelson would think of his navy today.
Getting back to the point the Israelis will never loose their moral fibre unlike this nation simply because they know they will be destroyed by the arabs if they do As for the so called british participants who took part in this outrageous incident they should all by charged with aiding an enemy state and hopefully given long prison sentences in an Israeli jail.
Finally I would like to make the observation that this country is embarking on expenditure of several billions of pounds to give our navy the most modern ships and armaments, well what a waste of money if this country lacks the courage to rescue two pensioners going about there own business no threat to any one, except possibly exposing how morally bankrupt this nation has become.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
My only thought on this incident is that it seems to be rather heavy handed and an over re-action by Isreal but as I don't know all the facts I must reserve judgement.I am sure there is more to this incident than meets the eye.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
the irony of it is the israeli goverment broadcasted edited highlites of the incident by cutting out the commados killing the 9 people,how conveniant.
Netanyahu is a bungling war-monger and conflict was inevitable from the day he took office; we've been there before with him in charge.
Israeli extremists disguised as settlers should be stopped from building in Palestinian territory thereby easing a very real tension.
Hamas/Iran needs to recognise Israel has the right to defend its borders against attackers, and will do so with a heavy hand, so, if they don't want their innocent people killed or maimed they should desist from indiscriminate rocket attacks over the border.
America should stop backing Israel regardless, and so should we.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
there lies the rub, israel knows that the united states will always back them regardless of their actions.
Howard, and what a shame that the Arab Nations have chosen not to back the Palestinian States (Golan Heights, West Bank and Gaza) to the same extent (roughly 2 billion US$ a year).
If they had chosen to put in development aid then they too might also have first class universities, second highest life expectancy on the Asian continent, 29th highest GDP in the world and the greatest number of NASDAQ listed companies outside the USA.
Instead they refuse third generation Palestinian refugees in their own countries citizenship and purposefully keep Palestinians in the three areas above in a state of poverty for political reasons.
In Israel Arabs have full voting rights (including women) and hold seats in the Knesset. In essence the only difference between the rights of a Jew and an Arab in Israel is that Arabs are not required to do National Service.
Meanwhile a light hearted look on it from the Daily Mash (slightly bowdlerised for forum readership).
ISRAEL JUST MAKING IT EASIER FOR GUARDIAN READERS TO LOOK GOOD
ISRAEL'S attack on a Palestinian aid ship will make it easier for Guardian readers to sound as if they know what they are talking about, it was claimed last night.
Experts warned Tel Aviv that every time it launches a seemingly unprovoked or disproportionate attack it allows at least 10,000 cretins to say something at a dinner party that everyone then agrees with.
Dr Martin Bishop, of the Institute for Studies, said: "Benjamin Netanyahu has to realise that his aggressive stance towards Hamas and Hezbollah is playing into the hands of some of the worst people in the world.
"I simply cannot sit through another dinner party with some speccie reader spouting off about Israel while all the single, attractive women around the table stare at him like he was Martin Luther King.
"Meanwhile I'm sitting there knowing it's actually a tad more complicated and that the Israelis are dealing with people who will not rest until it they've all been wiped from the face of the Earth and if it was us then we might just get a bit jumpy too, particularly if someone had tried to do it before.
"But if I come out and say that then this vegetarian ponce is going to accuse me of wanting to make a fancy cocktail with the blood of Palestinian babies and there goes any chance I may have of picking off the drunkest woman from the pack.
"If they could just protect their borders against exploding maniacs with a little more tact then that would help me enormously in my quest for really good sex."
But Julian Cook, a grade six Guardian reader from Highbury, said: "There's a fascinating piece by Jonathan Freedland which sums up my feelings exactly - and he's Jewish so that means I must be right. At least I think he's Jewish. He certainly looks like a Jew."
And Helen Archer, a social worker from Finsbury Park who keeps a photo of Polly Toynbee in her purse, added: "Israel are acting like Nazis - there, I said it."
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Brian, let's get facts right! No-one, including the Israelis as ministers and as citizens, have called all the Palestinians terrorists! Jews in Israel and Palestinians used to actually get on very well together until the Intifada broke out in the 80's of the last century, and wherever possible, Jews and Palestinians continued getting on well together whenever they could. I don't want to enter into the merit of what went wrong during this cheack and search operation of the Israeli armed forces to make sure that no explosive and rocket launching equipment were being carried to Gaza by people who manifestly declared themselves hostile to Israel before departing in their convoy, but I must intervene when I read statements that are not reality.
No peace between Israelis and Palestinians could be feasible if the good will of friendly contacts between Israeli Jews and the Palestinians are silenced and replaced with statements such as: thinking the Palestinians are terrorists.
Israelis know how to make a distinction between a terrorist and a normal person, as much as we do! The Israeli people do not and never have considered Palestinians as terrorists! But they do not like hassam rockets reigning down on them as much as you and I wouldn't! Israeli soldiers were evidently making sure that no explosives and rocket propelling devices were on that convoy!
So, Alexander, you confirm Israel knowingly bombed innocent men, women and children in their assualt on Gaza under the last regime? So, by my reckoning, assuming your argument holds true, that makes the Israelis worse then the warmongers I call them, and actually as bad as the Nazis and Russians of the early 20th century?
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Sid, I think that the Israeli policy is to check suspect convoys before they reach Gaza so as to prevent explosives and rocket-building equipment getting there in the first place, precisely because they do not want the Palestinian Hamas to fire rockets on Israel and because they do not want to retaliate by bombing Hamas targets in Gaza and in so doing risk killing or injuring civilians!
I was trying to make an estimation of what happened, and pointing out that there has been, and no doubt is, a great deal of good relations between Israelis and their Palestinian neighbours, that it is not al hatred, hatred, hatred. Was not justifying anything, Sid, either one way or the other. I am concerned with Britain's problems and am not going to get involved here in a dispute between Israelis and Palestinians.
Sid, you made it in post 15#, well done!
'Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.'
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
very true bob, hitler and his friends seem to be a yardstick to base opinions on.
you never hear anyone say anything nice about them, do you?
Dear Howard,
I am not to shy, so here goes,
"Is'nt it grand that Adolf Hitler and all his chums are DEAD" there despite my reservations I have said something nice about uncle Adolf
I believe that Hitler was a vegetarian as well as being teetotal and a non smoker plus one of his first acts was to ban fox-hunting.
It should have been apparent to anyone at this point that he was not to be trusted.
