Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
i agree with you 100% roger.its about time we changed the imergration policy to really tackle the problem,allso to get the message across to them that we have had enough.
I couldn't agree more that people who do not need our support should not have it, especially as it would be at the expense of people who do need it, home-grown and otherwise. But it is the constant dribble or even wash of bitter and angry propaganda about "illegals" and "asylum seekers" which turn even the words into terms of abuse. And people will not discern between the ones who need us and the ones who will abuse us. Most people, because it is easier and safer, will see just the amorphous "them".
I cannot understand how a term like "asylum seeker", redolent as it is with pathos and sadness, can have morphed into such a hideous term of abuse. That is not the fault of those who try to shaft the system, it is the fault of those who have exploited those actions for their own propaganda. Shameful.
Guest 687- Registered: 2 Jun 2009
- Posts: 513
Its the visual perception here in Dover, our elder residents face the fear of selling their homes they may have struggled to buy, to pay for residential care, yet they see each and every day non Brits with their children, housed and supported at public expense, paid for from taxes contributed by those very people who may have to sell their homes if they go into care.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,698
Good lord this is the sort of falicious, malicious half truths the BNP spout - when main stream, supposedly intelligent and sensible politicians start parroting it then we really are screwed
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 687- Registered: 2 Jun 2009
- Posts: 513
What I have said is pure fact and I stand by what I have said. I am not a politician but someone who reflects the views given to him by those who fear for their financial future.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,698
It is not fact and even you did not present it as a fact, you clearly stated it was a perception.
You may not currently be a politician, though you have been in the past and remain active in politics
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
ROSS
Well said!!!!
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
Just a very small point on the cyclists without being there its difficult to be able to reply as Iv no idea if the police involved were alreasdy on a job?
Also although not the underpass in general pavements there is an issue I would never push children out on the road as the roads are not that safe for cyclists and few cycle routes.
So maybe thats something we should be looking at more cycle routes ?
Ken - I don't know you yet, but sadly your credibility is already lacking for me. Pure fact? I would like your definition, please!
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Bern, Ross and Keith.
Now you've closed down the debate, by calling those who are genuinely concerned about illegal asylum seekers and refugees and what they are doing to our health service, education and benefits system etc. by calling them/me bigots and racists, the problem will only get worse.
Every time immigration and asylum seekers/refugees are mentioned, out come the accusations and because people are not racists or bigots, it shuts them up and the situation gets worse.
Well done.
Roger
Quite the reverese, actually - every time asylum seekers are mentioned some bigot decides to have a pop at anyone who has the temerity to be vulnerable or fearful and from another country. I actually agree with you - I don't want peope without claim or reason to sour the path of those in genuine need - I agree we ned a better policy in order to better target those who need and deserve our support. I don't want that to lead to what it always leads to: people inflaming public opinion to the point that anyone who uses any part of our system and hasn't lived here for te past 150 years is vilified.
Guest 643- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,321
Ken,
Just to let you know that I totally agree with what you said and I believe it to be the truth. As a pensioner myself I dread the day when I have to sell my property to pay for care for my husband and I if we need it. We have both worked hard throughout our lives and hoped to leave things to our children and grandchildren and as you rightly say, when our taxes are used to house people from other countries, some (not all) of whom should not be here anyway, it is very upsetting.
Bern I do agree with you that the words "assylum seekers" and "illegals" are used badly these days but I know the people Roger, Ken and Brian refer to are just the ones who come here for an easy life, NOT the genuine ones.
Roger - totally, totally agree with your post #30
You are 100% right in what you say.
Incidentally, how did Ross' post about glass in the road get to be a discussion about immigration!!
There's always a little truth behind every "Just kidding", a little emotion behind every "I don't care" and a little pain behind every "I'm ok".
Guest 687- Registered: 2 Jun 2009
- Posts: 513
I would not dream of going to live in another country without first making sure I could support myself, bearing in mind that no other country pays benefits to anyone who is not a national.
Secondly I work in Europe for a Dover company(driver) and I must always carry my European Health card with me, which guarantees should I be ill in another country then my care will be paid for on a reciprical basis.
I have paid taxes now for in excess of 50 years and have received the benefits, both medical and financial, of living in a caring country but my daughter's mother, who has a struggling business in Spain and paid taxes in the UK until 4 years ago, has been told she must qualify should she return to the UK.
ps I believe everyone should have the opportunity to better themselves but not to the detriment of others.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,698
Roger I have not branded anyone as racist or a bigot - I do stand by my comment that the perceptions reported in this thread are unfounded and factually erroneous, but accept that they are genuinely held in good faith.
I am more than happy to have a debate about how we as a nation fulfil our obligations to genuine asylum seekers, how we manage immigration and what we do about illegal migrants. The UK has a long history of rejecting and ostracising immigrants when they fist arrive but over time weaving them into the fabric of our society, including the French Hugenots, the Irish, the West Indians etc.
Within all societies there are freeloaders, including amongst those who are born and bred here.
All the evidence suggests that illegals try to stay below the radar of society so do not present themselves to the authorities seeking housing or any other benefits. in order to survive many take jobs at below minimum wage as they have no status, or become involved in criminal activities. It is the comparatively small numbers seeking asylum, where it is eventually decided without good grounds, who often end up in social housing etc. The vast majority of legal migrants (i.e. those with the right to stay or given leave to stay) end up in private accommodation, either rented or owner occupied. To balance this evidence from the Social is that the majority of benefit fraud is committed by people who would be best described as UK citizens.
Jacqui, sadly this is the nature of threads/conversations
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
Im with BERNE and ROSS on this one, lets have the debate, but informed please.
No one wants to see people in ANY walks of life abusing our system (including as ROSS says, UK persons)
I'm with posts 31 and 34
Guest 687- Registered: 2 Jun 2009
- Posts: 513
Post 34. Ross a good and informed response. A recent Home Office report, itself reported in the DE, said we the UK were seen as a soft touch by those attempting to gain illicit entry into the UK. Those in government have the difficult task of making it difficult for those seeking ILLICIT entry into the country and they should never reward those that succeed, bringing us into line with other EC countries.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
this subject will never get openly discussed.
1) the main problem is a lot of people do not know the difference between immigration and ayslum.
2) people throw up their hands and shout racism or similar if the subject is broached.
on the subject of asylum, just speak to the people on our front line, that catch people entering in trucks, document them and (too many times) release them. the same people then forget to report to the authorities, when requested to do so.
the fact about our country is that the infrastructure cannot handle the present population, let alone the projected figures from the united nation and european union.
do we start sterilising the people already here, or make a stop to immigration?
we have had water shortages from a long time now, flooding due to housing estates being built on flood plains, prison overcrowding, school class overcrowding, the health service unable to cope, roads gridlocked, trains are overcrowded,
ken and jaqui have made the point about the worry for older people having to sell their homes to pay for their care in their later years.
i doubt whether any government will face the problem and deal with it.
until then the far right will have a field day.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,698
Howard
You are right that the debate often (always?) gets bogged down in accusations of racism, or spurious tangents about "rich" countries.
We need to consider the following when we talk about migration:
1. What is our current birth rate
2. What is the current and forecast rates of emigration
3. What is our population forecast over the next 5/10/15/25 years
4. What is the country's optimum population in terms of natural resources, services, housing etc.
item 1 less item 2 gives you item 3; item 4 less item 3 gives you either the shortfall or excess population we can or cannot accommodate
Having done this we then need to decide how we, if we do, wish to fill any shortfall thereby defining the number of immigrants we can accommodate (we should of course allow for the average annual number of successful asylum seekers in that number). We should then decide on the method we use to vet and agree who fills that number - some sort of points system as recently introduced by HM Gov and in use for years in Australia & NZ seems to make sense.
Finally we need to ensure that we have adequate controls and checks at our borders, suitable working arrangements with our neighbours, sufficient staff to exercise not only these controls but also to properly vet all immigration applicants, review and investigate all asylum applications, process all failed asylum seekers/illegal immigrants for return to their country of origin.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
interesting post from ross.
i drafted the longest ever post that i have done here in reply, it then got lost when i pressed "send".
would take me too long to do it all again.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Apologies for that Howard..its one of those internet things Im afraid, it does happen occasionally but its very rare thankfully. It can be annoying though.