Don't start......!
Deep breath for this one....
PaulB's original posting has really highlighted a very sad, very true reality of modern life. Roger's fear to comment in any depth is proof of the disgusting bullying that our society embarks upon if someone dares to make any type of comment, joke, or racial reference, regardless of how harmless it is. I too feel far too intimidated by our wretched so-called "social values" to make my own views widely known, and that sucks.
One of the things that REALLY bothers me about the modern world isn't so much the racial mixing pot that we live in but the religious webs we have become tangled in. These days (really since 9-11) religious criticism has become a new form of "racism". Most of you know that I have strong negative views on most religions, and yes that includes but is not limited to Islam, and yet if I were to express these views strongly then I get branded a "racist".
This is absolute nonsense. We have all forgotten that religion is NOT race. It is a set of lifestyle rules, ideas, concepts, intellectual and spiritual theory, and pure belief system. It is not skin colour nor racially relevant in any way. Any human being on earth of any race can become Catholic, Christian, Muslim, or whatever. Because of these facts, no religion should be outside the scope of criticism or challenge. Nobody is born a Muslim, Catholic, Christian, or Satanist, people BECOME religious either through education and upbringing or through choice. It has nothing to do with race.
And this is where the point has become moot. Religions are now so self-protecting, so self-important, and so utterly impenetrable by the casual critic that we have even had to pass laws against making views known against them. While we still live in a largely secular society, we do have big communities of various religions in this country which is fair enough, but when natives (ie us lot) feel unable to make even the slightest argument against them or express any type of negative opinion against them, or even crack a harmless joke, then surely this is a type of thought-policing aimed at keeping the secular majority silent while the religious minorities go about whatever business they do unchallenged, unaccountable, and unenforced. It's a pure form of fascism designed to twist the secular majority's arm behind its back for the sake of a "quiet life".
If we are going to continue living in this mixed society of different races and religions (note they are two different things) then at the very least we should NOT feel too intimidated to express challenging views against the belief systems and the ideas which inspire them, whether native or not, that we are being forced to dwell among. But sadly, I fear we are too intimidated and so we remain utterly silent most of the time.
Living in a multi-race England has never worried me personally. In many ways the experience has been enriching and liberating. It is multi-culturalism, the face of mixing religious ideals, which is like mixing oil and water. I really do not believe it works. In my 38 years of being a proud Brit, I have NEVER felt that the country was so fragmented, divided, and troubled. And I have the feeling that the legacy of multi-culture is part good and part bad. The REALLY bad part being the inability to discuss the bad parts!
In an age where we change our Christmas carol festivals in case we offend Muslims, or get it in the neck for waving UK flags, it seems that nobody is capable of being racist except whites; everybody has rights except the quiet secular majority; and you can feel like a criminal just for having an opinion. Should it be such a crime to cause "offense"? The WORST part of all this is when your OWN people turn against you simply because you have a challenging view or found a harmless joke amusing. This is the really damned ugly side of multi-culture, where we start to cannibalise our own and making victims of our friends just so we can appear to be on "the right side". I'm sure you know what I mean Roger.
In some ways you could argue that the "rivers of blood" speech is in hindsight highly symbolic, and not literal, in expressing how the British viewpoint has been bled dry in the multi-culture environment. It's an interesting idea which I'd love to explore on this forum in great depth but like, yeah, that's really gonna happen.
Okay roll up, roll up, let's see who will be the first to brand me a racist.
Another deep breath Rick......
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
Rick
I pick up on just 2 of your points
1; if any council may decide to ban xmas carols then i oppose them
2; If councis/Gov go down the road of not allowing union jacks i oppose them
The so called joke ? was not maybe thought out and at first Roger did get my support as he indicated he was wrong in putting forward such a joke? since then Roger has defended the so called joke which bemused me.
The best thing we can do is put this behind us and move on
/
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i am confused here.
which councils have banned christmas carols and union flags?
is this hysteria from the tabloids, or is there factual evidence?
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
A good posting Rick and thank you for saying what you have said.
I read a piece recently about the silent majority and how they generally sit idly by, while the fanatics and extremists make the running and eventually, the decisions, then it's too late.
In a way it was saying, but much more graphically, that evil triumphs when good men/people do nothing.
Keith, it wasn't my joke, someone sent it to me , it made me laugh so I wanted to share it.
I hadn't analysed or disected it, I hadn't weighed up whether it was racist or whatever, just that it made me laugh, which is what jokes are supposed to do.
I apologised for the offence the joke may have caused.
If you disagree that the joke was really about the perception of Government policy on immigration - ie what the general public think that new immigrants get, when they come to this Country, then that is your prerogative, but the fact is, that it is about that, it has absolutely nothing to do with racism - nothing at all.
Roger
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
ROGER
I do have a lot of respect for you in wanting to have a better Dover as i'v said even if we disagree how to get there.
Oan the so called joke IK thought once you had said sorry it would all move on, but instead yiou came bsack like you are now defending it.9
So what i'm saying is, ok I defend you0r right to post and always will, (i'v even stooed up for Barryw when he banned) but with postings comes responsibility, more so because you are a Councillor. So you have to take the roiugh with the smooth.
I think now now we will never resolve the situation and it may be better to close the post altogether as Roger asked in the early stages.
HOWARD
Like you I have no idea where RICK geyts his information on the banning of fings whatr i do know is some nationals like to put out hyped up stories and sadly some people allow themselves to be led by, or believe every word in them,.
As I'v said if we ever do get evidence then i oppose it.
So Paulb
over to you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Yes excellent posts there with Rick in fine fettle...but no lads I dont think we should go back over the debate on that joke, its been done to death. As far as Im concerned there is nothing wrong with the joke. I took that decision before and I dont see any point in changing my mind now...its as jokes are, no better or worse than many ..it poked fun at a section of the community in much the same way as the Irish ones do for example. You dont see me getting in a lather.
But it raised a laugh in our jokes section. Dont go into the jokes section if you are a delicate wallflower and easily offended anybody. As I said before though..they are just jokes that are used by any comedian on any night, and very often on TV too.
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
Briillant post Rick. A lot of people have simply given up on Britain as the country is run like a benevolent political and far from benevolent social dictatorship.
Multiculturalism is a sheer misguided disaster for which we will pay for countless generations to come.
Sometimes you have to recognise that a battle is unwinnable and/or has already been lost and that all further effort is futile. Poor cowed, defeated, overwhelmed, battered, frightened old Britain.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
Andrew
I'm certainly not a defeated person, but i'm also not England for the English brigade either! otherwise poor old paulb wiouldnt be here lol
There were always going to be overtones with the so called joke, and thats fine, but as i say with postings comes responsibililty.
I preferred as i say rogers original apology and asking for the joke to be removed, the latest postings means to me a diffrent story.
I just hope its soon forgotten and we move on
Keith, your comments about that "so-called joke" really prove my point.
But anyway, just to try and prop up my comments a little, I do remember a news article a while ago in which people were flying UK flags during a football season. I will have terrible trouble finding the resource now, but if I remember rightly there were two issues - one being that flags needed planning permission in order to be displayed unless they were pole-mounted (this was utterly ridiculous and showed what bored councils get up to) and the other was following very real complaints that the flags were somehow offensive to non-natives and a bit "nationalistic".
As for Xmas carols offending Muslims - just Google the subject! There's loads of resources on this one, some tabloid gutter-trash and some very credible. Take your pick.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
im afraid Rick if there was any truth in any of those 2 items thren i oppose them
There is plenty of anecdotal and documented evidence of individuals and councils attempting to follow some poorly thought through guidlelines offered by whatever body governs them at that particular time and ending up doing frankly silly things like playing down Christmas or even banning religious symbols during Advent and Christmas in case they offend, and then bending over backwards to "involve and integrate" minority religions to the point at which their festivals outweigh or outshine Christian fesitvals. While I do have a faith, that does not impact on my view of the balance of faiths in the UK: Christianity is the major faith and culture, and in this case the two are related and impact on each other. Many of our laws and customs dropped out of the Christian basis in society over many centuries, and whether or not one is a Christian now, that is where our habits and culture was formed. It is what we are. Other cultures and faiths are valuable to us and to our society, give it balance, depth and interest, and deserve respect, but they are not majority, are not where our culture is based and are not our focus. We are the host, they are the guests. If that relationship is respected we can thrive. When the guests try to overpower the host, it is time to re-think.
Now - call me a racist.
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
"Andrew
I'm certainly not a defeated person, but i'm also not England for the English brigade either! otherwise poor old paulb wiouldnt be here lol"
I'm quite offended by that Keith. Just because I think that there are serious problems in this country that you get shouted down for raising doesn't make me one of the "England for the English" brigade.
By some definitions I wouldn't be here either if England were purely for the English.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
Andrew
I truly apologise if you feel offended by my comments, they were just that comments.
BERN
Usually I myself in agreement with you, and understand where your coming from, but the latest religious views are one that i disagree on.
Christian religion like all religions are struggling and all have there own problems.
I don't feel christian faith is any bigger or better than any other faith and all should be given equal status.
I think this article is well overdue closure anfd hope as i say we can akll move on soon.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Bern I totally agree with your last post. I would describe the UK as a society rooted in the Christian tradition. I, as an athiest, value our christian tradition even though I am a non-believer and do not participate in religious ceremonies.
It is this christian tradition (as opposed to formal christian religion) that provides the whole basis of our culture.
The glue that holds a society together is a common culture. We must cherish our common culture and the minorities should be encouraged to cherish it too and to integrate.
The appalling and mad creed of multiculturalism is damaging our society. This can only be repaired by integration and not the apartied of multiculturalism. Integration does not mean anyone giving up their religious beliefs and practices, look at how well so many Jewish people have integrated.
Multiculturalism also should not be mixed up with multiracial, two different things.
I was not talking about the religion, but the fact that it has informed and shaped our culture, and is the basis for who we are. That makes it important in this country, and I belioeve gives it additional status over others. That is not to say the others should be dis-respected or disallowed - all faith should be fully respected and have room to practice. BUT our homegrown culture is rooted in Christianity and that seriously needs to be acknowledged. We can co-exist, but only on the basis of proper respect and boundaries, not on the premise that alternative cultures and faiths take precedence.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Bern - saying the same thing differently..... at the same time.
Bern, I need to challenge your views. You have mentioned TWICE above that all religions "deserve respect". Please tell me why? Why does a religion DESERVE respect? Just because it is a religion and followed by over-sensitive individuals who cry about how offensive we all are if we don't respect it? Sorry, NO religion "deserves" respect by default. I have very little respect for most religions especially when most of them are responsible for countless millions of wars, deaths, social divisions, acts of terrorism, and varying degrees of human discord. I personally think the world would be far nicer without any of them!
Religions deserve respect because people deserve respect, and faith means something to some people. It is not the faiths or religions that cause the problems, it is the people running them and the people opposing them. Respecting the person necessarily means respecting the faith. That doesn't mean accepting its precedence or accepting it as your own. Faith and organised religion are not always the same thing. But respect the person, respect the belief. I would add, respect that belief if it is vegetarianism, veganism, free love, scientology, whatever. As long as the faith or belief does not make demands on you, does not infringe your own human rights, it should be respected as we should respect the faithful.
