Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
brown has nothing to answer to,the person who wrote the e mail has apolgised,resigned and left on the same day.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
has anyone reached the conclusion that i have?
her majesties opposition have been beavering away in the easter break, not to discuss policies that will result in an improved economy, should a snap election is called.
no, they have spent this time in a "he said, she said, they said, will he/she/it apologise"?
i suppose that in their mind set, the unemployed, soon to be unemployed, those struggling with their mortages, those who cannot get a mortgage, take second place to feelings that might have been hurt by smears.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Open your eyes, Brian and howard.
Look at the on-line news, try Google News and Politicshome.com.
See what is being said by journalists, bloggers and, above all by Labour politicians. Yes, today it has been more the Labour politicians who have been victims of McBride and Brown's culture of smears who have been making the running. There is more to come, this story is not dead yet.
The questions about Brown's premiership are more serious than ever. Yes the economy is the biggest issue and most serious issue we have and it will remain in the news for a while yet, but this is also an important matter of how we are governed and about leaders taking responsibility for how they govern (or not...)
We are witnessing the death throes of this Government. If Brown had any sense or self respect he would call a General Election to get the pain out of the way now but I do not expect that. The way is only down for this Government from here.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
perhaps you should do likewise barry.
instead of obsessing about the pm, listen to your clients.
are they really interested in the present tittle tattle, or are they more worried about how their money is doing?
i would assume the latter, and they see nothing from the new government in waiting to allay their fears.
i have no time for blogs and internet rumours, real life is much more important to the majority.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Some people who I came to my office yesterday raised a joke at Brown's expense on this very issue, howard. Yes they are worried about the economy and their finances but right now are distracted from financial worries by this issue.
To them it is a welcome distraction from a seemingly never ending tale of economic woe. They may not understand the finer points of economics but they do understand this story and that is why it is so particularly damaging to Brown.
Just because things are very grim it does not mean people can't turn their attention to another matter. The economy will reurn to the top of the news agenda, a very grim budget next week can be expected.
As I say, it is all downhill for Labour.
Whoever you vote for the Government gets in. When will we learn..........?
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
barryw,theres an old saying,sticks and stones may break my bones BUT names will never hurt me.in other words grow up and get a life.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Brian, Bern Howard - if this was going on with a Conservative Government your attitude would be very different. The fact is it is a Labour Government and what is happening is a direct result of its controlling and obsessive leadership (or rather management) style. Your responses demonstrate just how weak any defence of this Government is.
Look at the following. These quotes below show why this is so damaging to Brown and Labour.
"The Prime Minister's response to his disgraced adviser's behaviour is worse than inadequate. There is no suggestion that Mr Brown knew about the malevolent e-mails until the story broke, but there are two reasons why he should apologise directly to those whom Mr McBride maligned. First, the quality of public life has been tarnished by actions taken in Downing Street. Second, Mr Brown is the principal figure in government, and it is in the nature of leadership to be accountable for things that go wrong." - Times editorial
"Mr McBride bullied and smeared people for years to that very end, and if Mr Brown says he didn't know about it, then I for one do not believe him. Mr McBride is just one of a number of moral defectives who are put to that task, inside and outside Number 10. Mr Brown should say sorry because he not merely invented some of these people - notably Mr McBride - but he also tolerated and, by omission, encouraged their behaviour" - Simon Heffer writing in the Daily Telegraph
"This refusal to shoulder responsibility means that the furore over Mr McBride's obnoxious emails is proving stubbornly resistant to the normal vagaries of the news cycle, and the damage to the reputation of both Mr Brown and the Government will be all the greater. That is the paradox of this affair. An attempt to drag the Tories through the mud has succeeded instead in exposing the moral and political vacuity of Labour." - Telegraph editorial
"Four former Labour ministers came forward last night to blame Gordon Brown for creating a culture which allowed his former aide Damian McBride to draw up plans to smear senior Conservatives. The ministers criticised his style of leadership, suggesting that Mr McBride was carrying out his wishes rather than acting as a freelance operator. They joined David Cameron in demanding an urgent shake-up of the Downing Street machine." - The Independent
"Harold Wilson asserted that the Labour party was a moral crusade or it was nothing. The McBride affair has left Labour members looking at nothing. That is the reality check that McBride has wrought on the party." - Frank Field MP in The Independent
BarryW - whichever government was in power my responses would be the same: I am socialist, not labour, and sadly I am unlikely to see a socialist government in my lifetime - and even if I did I would be as critical of them as I am of the rest!! Governments have evolved into self-perpetuating monoliths designed only for the good of the people in and surrounding them and have lost even any nominal intent to serve the populace. Slimed in sleaze and trapped in dogma, they serve only as a reminder of the truth in the phrase "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely", and as a useful fable to introduce our children to the idea of egotism with explanatory pictures care of the gutter press.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
barryw,my opinion is the same as berns,all goverments are there to be knocked at some stage.at least the 3 people you have named in your post dont cut and paste,havent you got your own opinion with out going to central goverment for your own answers.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Brian - I give my opinion, based on evidence and can argue my case. I use evidence to support what I am saying in the context of what I am saying. I provided those quotes to back up why I said this is a serious political issue and still has legs with the media. I do not try to just repeat what others have said and pass that off as my comments.
You have no answer and seem to wish only to brush under the carpet any debate critical of the Government. Instead of diverting attention from the issues why dont you address them properly and give your views on the specific with supporting evidence? Lets have a proper debate instead of allowing it to degenerate into this absurdity.
Sid Pollitt
A proper debate? I'm afraid that you, BarryW, only want to debate when it suits you. Where was the evidence when you posted that Gordon Brown is stupid, or that he is a liar? It seems to me that you resort to personal attacks when the line you're peddling is challenged. BarryW, how exactly do you differ from this Damien McBride exactly?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
I dont make up smears, Sid, and you know it, except of course you dont read posts properly as can be seen in your previous post on this thread. My comments on Brown, that I fully stand by, were evidenced by his actions on which I commented in this thread. You too could perhaps try addressing the issues being discussed instead of diverting attention.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
a bit like john mager then what was your thoughts on that was ongoing.
Here we go, trapped in our own arguments while the government of the day gets away with it again. One of the major challenges for the masses is organisation, and we fail it every time!! If we worked together, addressed issues thoughtfully and carefully, and had plans B, C and D in place, we would be very powerful. But instead we tend to thrash about scoring points. I need to say that this isn't directed at any one person, but is a mass observation of humanity!!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
For those of you who says Brown does not need to say sorry. A true story told by Matthew Parris in the Times that is a matter of public record:
-------------------------
Twenty years ago a political aide working at the heart of the office of the leader of the Conservative Party was exposed as having dispatched a wholly inappropriate communication. It was to a woman who had written complaining to Margaret Thatcher about her council house.
The aide had replied that she should be grateful to have a taxpayer-subsidised house at all. Splashed across the press and coming as it had from the Boss's office, the letter was rude and stupid.
Thatcher knew what to do. "I'm so very sorry" was a headline on the front page of the Daily Mirror on March 30, 1979. She had sent by courier a handwritten apology to the woman. Explaining that she had known nothing of the letter (this was true), she described her own anguish at its contents. "I can only apologise," she said, and then, again, "I'm so very sorry." The aide (who was leaving the office anyway) was told that if the media asked, they'd be informed he had been sacked.
Hopefully, Labour printed three million copies of that Mirror page as an election leaflet. But the offended lady's response had helped to kill the story: "I feel the apology is justified and I'm pleased Mrs Thatcher was brave enough to own up," she said.
That aide was me. I had wanted to defend myself by publishing the woman's first letter, but Margaret Thatcher's reaction was unhesitating.
Say sorry, fast, unconditionally, before anyone asks us to. Then shut up.
-----------------
Now that is a lesson that Gordon Brown could have learned from. (I think Parris meant 30 years ago incidentally) By his refusal to apologise Brown has caused the story to gain more traction, so why did he not simply do it. It can only be the same syndrome that prevents him from owning up to his responsibilities over the economy. His refusal in this case actually helps to highlight the latter.
Women are notoriously better at the Sorry word than men, as you know!!! But apologies are a cheap and innocent way to mend and build bridges, it is true.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
I do indeed know Bern (so does Alison"!!!!) but the whole point about this is that brown could have drawn a line under it and his failure to apologise has created a much bigger story that stil reverberates.
I am getting whispers that there may be more to come, more smearing emails with others in no 10 implicated. We shall see....
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Wow, the BBC are reporting that Brown has finally said sorry. Shamed into it no doubt, still better late than never.
Just had a look to check what they say he said exactly, need to check up on him, cant take anything this man says at face value.
This is the quote:
"I am sorry about what happened... I wrote to those people affected, expressing deep regret, and the person responsible went immediately... I take full responsibility for what happened. That's why the person who was responsible went."
Now I have read that two or three times. Yes, he did say sorry and all credit to him for that. But what was that he says at the end, "I take full responsibility for what happened. That's why the person who was responsible went." Does that mean he is going..... no I didnt think so, not just yet anyway, just clumsy use of language maybe, mmmmm.
Sid Pollitt
Gordon Brown has said sorry, mind you they had the shadow shadow chancellor George Osborne making a comment and his weasel words would make you wonder why Brown bothered. Tactics heaped upon spin yet again from the Tories. For more mealy mouth words on the subject see above.
Damned if he does, damned if he doesnt yet again.