howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
3 October 2009
11:0629711result due late this afternoon on the vote for the lisbon treaty.
seems like a yes vote will just about win, the irish economy is in it's worst state for decades, the voters being told that all will be sorted with a "yes" vote.
to me this a mockery of democracy, a 50% turnout just adds to the farce.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
3 October 2009
12:0729714Democracy and anything to do with the EU just does not fit. The EU version if democracy, if they dont get their way in a vote, fiddle around a bit, make the language more incomprehensible and then get another vote and vote again and again until the dumb electorate see the light and do what the EU masters require of them.
Better off out.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
3 October 2009
12:1429716It looks like a Yes vote mainly because Eire is pinning it's hopes on the EU bailing it out.Guinness costing 5$Euros a pint is enough to make anyone vote for a change.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
3 October 2009
15:0529724To me the Irish have been duped and I am not being insulting to the Irish at all, but the yes people and supporters have been given much higher prominence in the TV and media this time round.
It is a sad day for all the people of Europe - for democracy and well being and a good day for faceless beaurocrats.
I don't have a problem with being a member of a trading organisation, which is what I joined up to all those years ago; I didn't then and I don't now, want a Federal Europe and I believe the people of Britain should be given the vote as to whether that is what they really want.
Roger
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
3 October 2009
15:5029728what we want and what we get are two [2] differant things.the eu countrys will fall into line one after another,the domino effect i do belive.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
3 October 2009
17:3629739Howard is right, it is a mockery of democracy. The fact that they held this extra election at all is very odd indeed. The people had already voted. This time the result was bought.
I was amazed that they voted against ratification (NO) the first time round. I mean to say, it is a country that thrived bigtime within the European Union household so why did they vote against it then. iT was truly bamboozling to me!
Now the system has got the result it wants so the dust can finally settle.
Ireland got overconfident previously. The economy was doing well, their 'Celtic Tiger' surge forward was very impressive, and the general feeling was...'nothing can stop us now!'
Then came the recession. The banks either went bust or hung on by the process of government nationalisation, and big business shed jobs by the truckload. The result...panic! and a re-alignment of thinking.
Although this new YES result is bought and paid for, throw enough money at anything and anything is possible...it is the right result in my view. They can now get on with a comfortable life within the cosy safe confines of the European Union.
67.1% voted YES.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
3 October 2009
17:4729743paul
how many others have ratified the treaty?
only those who have not had a vote on it, added to that the czech republic and poland(whose governments have not ratified it).
how will the average irish citizen benefit from the outcome of this vote?
even the irish governement have not answered that one.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
3 October 2009
18:2429751funny all this anti europe stuff it was an over whelming yes vote
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
3 October 2009
18:2829752I think the average Irish citizen will benefit because Ireland is terribly prone to fluctuations in fortune. Being part of a thriving EU seems to bring more stability to the nation. Stability means secure jobs. What clobbered everything in Ireland this time was the world recession, but prior to that hickup all was tickey boo for Ireland within the EU. ...they never had it so good.
Despite early currency concerns.. the euro is much more solid than was expected with some of the euro nations seeing a return to growth first. Another aspect is that major companies from the US and so forth looking for a foothold in the EU often chose Ireland. Some of the biggest names are there. This almost certainly wouldnt happen if Ireland was outside the EU for example.
So although the Irish are not looking at pulling out of the EU, a stronger EU with all the nations pulling together is obviously better than a EU with disintegration on the cards. If nations dont grasp this treaty their is a danger of the wheels coming off across Europe with a weaker Union. In the new world where BIG counts most..ie China, India, US..dawdling little nations have no chance. The only solution is a strong union, a strong united bond.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
3 October 2009
18:3429755PaulB
There were sticking points last time round about nuetrality abortion and another point thats zapped out of my head whilst typing (old age) that have since been addressed and amended in the Lisbon Treaty. Poland and the Czech Republic have still to ratify the treaty so watch the pressure from the EU switch to those countries.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
3 October 2009
20:1329764paul
there was a report on news 24 on friday that painted a terrifying picture of the irish economy.
the most eye catching was pictures of executive housing estates, semi built, then left to be vandalised due to the recession.
developers have gone bankrupt all over the country, how will the lisbon treaty have any effect on it?
the irish are already full members of the EU, full members of the euro, what will change that will make peoples lives better?
you mention about the large companies from outside, they moved there well before the euro was mooted, because the country had high unemployment and a highly educated workforce.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
3 October 2009
20:2329766i dont know people cant see the wood for the trees.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
4 October 2009
07:3729785Yes there has always been a tradition of American companies in Ireland going way back a long time before the European Union was ever heard of. The Americans got a secure workforce in Ireland, a workforce that accepted lower pay than their American counterparts, and all worked out well for both the americans and the irish. The products made at a guess went back to the American market as there was no single european market of any kind. A whole series of red tape ridded countries made up what was a european market recovering from war.
I had a relation or two working for US companies in fact but nevertheless all this didnt make Ireland wealthy as this kind of US cooperation was relatively small. Irelands main export continued to be its people looking for work.
With the European Union Ireland found a new drive, a new pride, more jobs and so on. Greater investment in services and facilities followed, greater interest from companies looking for good tax breaks and a solid foothold in Europe, and all was going well. I think they saw themselves as mightily independent forgetting about the hand that fed them...for a while!
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
4 October 2009
07:4429786It may have been 67 voted yes, but it was only 67% of those who voted - about 50% or just under, so if you are talking majorities, 67% of less than half the population is NOT a real majority of the people.
Ireland won't have much of a say in how Europe is run (and I don't believe that one size fits all), they are all different countries with different needs and nuances; the decision makers will be the Beaurocrats and France and Germany and the smaller countries will have to fall into place.
The EU is a bottomless pit as regards money and we are a net contributor - by many billions; the accounts have never been signed off as O.K because of the fraud that is perpetuated there - you couldn't get a more corrupt organisation, every whistleblower on this has been sacked or much worse.
The philosophy seems to be "do as you're told and you'll be O.K."
Roger
4 October 2009
09:2429797In my opinion (educated but remote) the Irish Government backed by the EU states played on people fears and anxieties rather than offer positive solutions and outcomes. We have seen economies come and go, as PaulB says, and the population is scared of furrther poverty. Having said that, the most No votes came from the poorer working classes, who are usually a bit better at taking their Government with a pinch of salt. Less to lose, I guess!! I am sad the vote was Yes, but recognise that fewer - much fewer - people voted this time, as they could see it was simply a ploy, keep voting until we get the answer we want. Outrageous and hypocritical.
Guest 686- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 556
4 October 2009
17:2729816Centralised European Mafia perhaps, Roger? The whole thing reeks of corruption.
Phil West
If at first you don't succeed, use a BIGGER hammer!!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
4 October 2009
18:1929818of course it reeks of corruption.
the irish politicians knew the score, same as all the other countries.
be a good boy and a nice sinecure awaits you the moment the local electorate gives you the bumsrush.
.
a lot more money and expenses to be had in brussels and noone to ask awkward questions
4 October 2009
18:3529821Exactly. A pot of gold for every bloody leprechaun waiting in Brussles at the end of the rainbow.
I am allowed to use that imagery - I am Irish!!!!!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
4 October 2009
19:2729823how do we stop the juggernaut bern?
the prime minister in waiting today declined to promise us a referendum until the czechs and poles make up their mind.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
4 October 2009
21:1429830No Howard that is not what has been said.
If the Treaty has not been ratified by the time of the election, as is possible given the delays in Poland and Czech Republic, DC if elected will immediately announce an early date for the referendum and will campaign for a No vote. He cannot do anything until elected.
If it has been ratified before the election then we will have a different ball game and we will be told what the policy will be at that time. He has said that the issue will not be 'left there'.