Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
5 October 2009
07:1929835barryw,still not convinced about cameron.its seems that he has no clear policy,weather the czech or poles have ratified it or not,in my mind he is sitting on the same fence as brown to scared to say one way or anther in case it influences the other two countrys.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
5 October 2009
07:3629839It is very clear to me, no sitting on the fence.
DC is against the Treaty and will have a referendum campaigning for a No vote provided the Treaty has not been ratified. That is very clear.
His problem is that if it has been ratified then we have a much more tricky situation.
A referendum cannot extract us from the Treaty, though a no vote would provide moral backing for a fundamental renegotiation of Britains relationship with the EU. In this situation a different question would need to be asked a yes or no to the Treaty would be a nonsense question as it would be enacted. Clearly this is a much more complex situation and it is far better not to divert attention from the situation we actually have now for what might happen. It could be that a referendum would be better after a re-negotiation not before.
What I want is no Treaty but because of Brown and Blair's betrayal it may be imposed on us so if that happens we want the right result from re-negotiation. That would be the only game in town.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
5 October 2009
07:4929841When Blair becomes President of The EU it won't matter one hoot whether Cameron has a referendum or not.
I doubt whether the Tories will have one but again as highlighted by many pundits on todays breakfast viewing it clearly illustrates the division and rift in the Tory Party.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
5 October 2009
08:4129844Actually the Conservatives are Eurosceptic full stop. There are very few pro-EU Conservatives that is why the media have to wheel out yesterdays men, Leon Brittan, Heseltine, Howe for instance, to get a pro-EU Conservative perspective. The only leading pro-EU Tory among the present generation is Ken Clarke.
Major's problems was not that of having a few anti-EU rebels but because he was leading an anti-EU Party in the pro-EU direction, tail wagging the dog if you like.
Only 16% in a survey last week of Conservatuive members were pro-EU. 40% want out all together while the remaining want a renegotiation.
I am firmly in the anti-EU wing and want us out.
Make no mistake, when Cameron speaks against the Treaty he means it and is speaking from the heart.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
5 October 2009
12:1629851For those who are hoping for 'Tory splits' headlines, I am afraid that you are going to be very disappointed.
This from the Guardian today:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2009/oct/05/david-cameron-daniel-hannan-europeBrian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
5 October 2009
14:4529856barryw,words are cheap,action and commitment speak volumes.none of the 3 partys have the commitment let alone the action to go either yes and grab it firmly in both hands or say no and get out with a good deal for us.as i said all 3 partys ARE sitting on the fence.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
5 October 2009
15:1129859Words are all an opposition Party have, until elected. We know about Labour (and LibDems) on the EU - they reneged on their promise of a referndum, that is their 'action'.
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
5 October 2009
15:2029861So all the Tories have Barry are words and empty promises until they get in,and just wait for the surprises then,bet the average working man will do well while old DC will look after his posh mates.
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
5 October 2009
15:2329862John - all Labour have now are words and they are in Government.... when they are in Opposition thats all they will still have.
Please provide the kind of sensible point that I know you are capable of, this is getting tedious.
Guest 673- Registered: 16 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,388
5 October 2009
15:2629863I think it is a bit late for the Conservatives to be eurosceptic now. In fact, I think it is a darn cheek. It was Edward Heath who signed us up to be members of the European community (and cheerfully gave away our fishing grounds).
The privatisation policies of the Thatcher years have now firmly cemented us into Europe. Most of our utilities such as water and electricity are now owned by the French. We are going to be at the back of the queue for new nuclear power stations in the forthcoming energy shortage as we no longer own our own or have the ability to manufacture them.
The French are almost entirely nuclear and their own requirements will come first. We are going to have to be very nice to them. In the meantime, we shall continue to erect vast numbers of extremely expensive and almost completely useless wind turbines in a fatuous gesture towards climate change amelioration to meet obligations imposed by the very same EU.
Our transportation links are now very much foreign owned. The privatisation of British Rail by John Major saw to that. Great swathes of the British rail network are now owned by the French and German nationalised railways. SNCF owns a substantial part of Eurostar and of Southeastern. Deutsche Bahn runs most of the freight on British railways, having purchased EWS from Wisconsin Central. DB also owns Chiltern Railways and is shortly expected to purchase the British arm of Eurostar.
The Channel Tunnel is now completely French owned. Margaret Thatcher required that it be built with private money. It was a financial disaster and seven billion pounds had to be frittered away leaving a remnant sustainable debt of three billion to be administered by Groupe Eurotunnel.
The Channel Tunnel Rail Link was also a financial disaster, again as a requirement of being built with private money to be paid for by the receipts from an anticipated 21 million Eurostar passengers a year, which never happened. It was only completed after John Prescott guaranteed that the government would step in and pick up the bill when it all went belly up, which is what happened as predicted.
British railway manufacturing capacity was decimated by the lamentable Railtrack organisation formed by John Major to run the BR infrastructure, subsequently taken back into public ownership under Network Rail, now in debt to the tune of 25 billion pounds. Remnant manufacturing is largely owned by Bombardier with all freight locomotives being built in Canada and Spain. We are no longer able to design even such a relatively simple beast as the high speed train for HS1 and have had to send nearly a billion pounds to Japan for them to do it for us.
The airports are owned by the Spanish. Most of the seaports are owned by a consortium including Singapore and North America.
It is much, much too late to profess to be eurosceptic. Harold Macmillan warned that we were selling off the family silver decades ago and so it has come to pass. Edward Heath's vision was of a united Europe basically to bind all Europeans into a political and economic entity to stop the Germans from plunging us into yet another war, after two wars in one century had left the entire continent utterly devastated not once but twice.
Any idea that this was just an essay in economic cooperation without the ultimate intention being that of full political integration is remarkably ingenuous. Does anybody seriously think that in a hundred year's time all the little countries of Europe will still be doing their own thing?
5 October 2009
16:0229865Hear hear, but I still want out of Europe. Can we please also remember that the people who are expecting us to trust them and vote for them have been swindling us via their expenses for years? let us not forget that horror.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
5 October 2009
17:5829870spot on bern, they still are looking after themselves too.
the usual thing after an election is for the new government to sort themselves out a pay increase, anyone bet against it happening again?
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
5 October 2009
17:5829871I agree Bern.
Thankfully the days of Heath and Major are behind us; we were perhaps naive to believe that we were voting for a trade-only partnership - a common market, but that is what I based my vote on.
I have never believed in a Federal Europe and I hope we never have the Euro.
Maybe in a hundred years time Ed. there won't be an EU, it will be back to individual countries - who knows ?
Roger
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
5 October 2009
18:1929878One thing I most regret was campaigning for a yes vote in 1975. Being young and naive then I suppose I believed the Europhiles when they said it was just for trade.
I want out of the EU and nothing Ed refers to changes anything there. What Ed does not mention are the businesses the British own in other European countries and in America (not to mention the rest of the world) as that does not fit his argument.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
5 October 2009
18:3029880To be fair, Ed was referring to the UK Utilities and essential services that have been flogged off to other EU Member states.
It's strange Heath sold his soul and dignity to appease De Gaulle in order to obtain UK entry to the EEC and Wilson opposed it.Now it's the other way around. I sometimes wonder whether the parties argue against each others policies just for the sheer hell and devilness of it all.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
5 October 2009
21:1429883BarryW, there is nothing to be ashamed of in being young and naive. when I was young and Naive I was a member of the Conservative Party...........and then I woke up!!!!!!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
5 October 2009
21:1529884Changing situation. If Heath was honest about the European experiment he would never have got as much support for it. Also that generation were traumatised by the war and that was a big factor in their thinking.
We have a different set of curcumstances now, and if we still had the EEC I would not be against it. The EU is a different beast.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
5 October 2009
21:2629885For most people its the other way around, waking up when older and joining the Conservatives!!!
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,698
5 October 2009
23:1629889Given that at the current and probably last G7 the US have floated the idea of a G4 (USA, EU, China & Russia) leaving the EU will relegate the UK to being just another island state with no "skin in the game" when it comes to the major world politics and economic policy. Now this might well be fine for the Little Englander Thatcherite tendency that appears to have inherited the Conservative Party, but frankly for myself as an internationalist I would ather see us at least have some share of this through the EU.
Oh don't get me wrong, the way it is currently set up and operates is completely unacceptable, it screams out for sensible reform, significant reduction in size and reach etc. etc.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
6 October 2009
07:3329895It has nothing to do with being a "Little Englander" Ross, nor to do with looking inward; there's a whole world out there we can trade with, including the EU.
There are European Countries that aren't part of the EU and they are doing very well - they trade with everyone.
It's also not so much being in the EU, but being RUN by the EU that I am very concerned about; being out of their control would be a great benefit to us.
Even just financially we'd be better off - we are a net contributor.
Roger