Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
2 January 2009
18:0611959Cor Blimey
What a can of worms
If we had invested more into education,social services,health care etc in the boom years of the 70's under Thatcher then we would now not be facing this problem.There are countries in Africa that have a higher literacy rate than the UK .
If we don't start investing serious money in the very young very soon than this culture of not working and obtaining benefits will only continue and worsen.
Trying to fix todays problems of unemployment is like trying to stop leaks in the Hoover Dam with a tube of UHU.
I am all for the benefits system but I am also trying to find a long term solution and that can only be done by investment into our teachers and our children and our educational system.
Parents must be made aware of their role in this as well as society and govt.
Having said all that until we crack down on the spongers then the same old Tory stereo typed remarks will continue.
Drug rehabilitation,drink awareness,substance abuse courses should be part of that learning process.But whilst they grow up seeing their Mum and partner drawing the dole and heading for the pub with likeminded souls what incentive is there for them to get off their butts and start to make something of their lives.So maybe initially we may have to be hard and decisive and make tough decisions which some people will not approve of.
Howard
Why do you necessarily assume that if their benefits are withdrawn that they will be forced into a life a crime.They will still receive food and clothing vouchers,The rent and council tax will be paid.Their energy demands will be met.There will also be other projects that they could enlist on that would enable them to a draw a weekly wage should they so desire.
Bern
You are correct reviewed better targetted etc exactly.We appear to be able to discriminate between the genuine and disingenuine so why oh why can't the authorities.
Chris
You ask about how to distinguish between community workers appointed by the courts and my poor use of english term 'work gangs'.Sorry thats my fault for not having time to clarify my thoughts.I was thinking more of having state run manufacturing places,volunteer organisations that require assistance with mail shots,learning a new trade centres.Totally different approach.I haven't got any answers only my thoughts but having travelled literally around the world and lived in some shitawful countries they do not appear to be caught up in PC but more in fixing the problem.So needless to say everyone tries to earn a crust by some means or other.
I am not advocating child labour but merely striking a balance by helping those who want to work get the training and financial assistance they deserve and making it more difficult for those who have no intentions and never had of securing employment obtain benefits and therefore crippling the system that in principle is there to help.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
2 January 2009
20:0211960marek
if food and clothing vouchers are given, rent and council tax paid, surely that is the same as paying benefit in the first place.
it is just another way of describing the system we have now.
2 January 2009
23:2111976I guess whatever we do will still be a "system"! It's a complex and fraught challenge, but so desperately needs to be addressed properly. Whoever does that will be unpopular with someone, which means politicians will be unwilling to step into the poop to do it! Potentially then, a business type with time on their hands and no pressing need for popularity?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
2 January 2009
23:2611979my point is that there is no answer to the problem
watch this thread die
2 January 2009
23:5611982Listening to the rattle right now.......................
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
3 January 2009
07:4511985Bern, why do you say that the words I use, create (the feeling of) an underclass - ie, people on benefit (for whatever reason) are a class below those not on benefit- isn't that a case of "if the cap fits, wear it " ?
Like I've said countless times, there are those who need it and those who don't and it's stopping the cheats from cheating, that needs to be changed.
This thread will obviously die because we cannot change the system; we can argue and discuss, but at the end of the day, we're only confirming our beliefs - whatever they are.
Roger
3 January 2009
09:3511992If you use words like "unfortunate" and "vulnerable", however apt they may be for some of the people in the group, they leave a lasting impression which sticks to all in the group. Language is universally powerful, Pinter knew that, and we use it too often not to expand our knowledge and perceptions but to control and reduce freedoms. We need to be seriously aware of how our interactions impact on others and on our political environment.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
3 January 2009
10:0111996See Roger! I have always found BERN to be fair minded, and we have to be careful with changes made.
Although it sounds simple(I'm sure its not) vouchers for certain things may help, like MAREK says
for council tax, utilities etc where it can ONLY be spent on these things would help to stop it being spent in pubs etc
so theres some good ideas out there.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
3 January 2009
12:0512009As rent and council tax are paid directly to the councils already there is no need for vouchers. Utility bills vary with the season, as does diet and clothing requirements making them difficult to set onto a regular voucher system. Totally depriving people of spending money, no matter how little, would reduce living to existance and further demean the feelings of self-worth vital to health, and any hope of getting work.
As Bern has correctly pointed out, people are already stigmatised by the language and attitudes of those with little understanding of life on benefits, do we need to demean them further by taking away even the most basic control of their own finances?
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
3 January 2009
19:0412027I don't know whether it is because I have never claimed benefit, but I absolutely disagree with this attitude of classing all on benefit as an underclass - I certainly don't think it is the case and I don't think it a good enough reason not to attempt to stop those who cheat the system, from cheating; or put another way, changing the benedfit system from being a way of life for some, to what it should be - a safety net.
Roger
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
5 January 2009
08:3612102Roger
I dont fink anyone disagrees with what you say, its about how you do it.
And how far your sympathy realy lies with people on benefits.
No one apart from brave marek has indicated real ways of stopping it
and MAREK realy is good in what he produces very interesting stuff
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
5 January 2009
18:0112146Keith - how far my sympathy lies with people on benefit, depends on why they're on benefit
Roger
5 January 2009
18:5612155A bit patronising, isn't it? Many people have invisible reasons for being unable to work full time, or at all. Equally, I am not sure how much the people on benefits value your sympathy! That's not personal, just a reflection on what their actual priorities might be.........
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
6 January 2009
07:2312198We're just going round and round in circles here. I've said on this thread many times, the only people I have a problem with and that I feel need sorting out, are those who cheat the system and are doing so as a way of life.
Why is it patronising Bern ?
I doubt if any one (who is on benefit) values mine or anyones else's sympathy.
Roger
6 January 2009
08:5712210I don't think we disagree, Roger - no-one should be able to milk the system, paid for by yours and my taxes! It's just the general culture of maligning anyone on benefits that I struggle with, and which leads to genuine hardship in those who feel crushed by their dependence.
Unregistered User
6 January 2009
11:2612218I think we would all subscribe to that Bern.
Now how do we deal with the others?
Watty
6 January 2009
13:2212221For a start, equality of assessment: I have known doctors vary widely in their medical assessment of ability to work, some granting benefits to anyone who asks, others at the other end of the spectrum declining benefits to anyone who can actually get out of the house without dying.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
6 January 2009
18:4912227the whole point remains that no-one has any idea how to get life long malingerers to help out a bit.
6 January 2009
22:0612244As any politician knows, appealing to self interest never hurts.......it's a simple matter (!) of working out what rewards and inducements work. They work better than punishments, but often need punishments as a back-up! It's hard to imagine, but put yourself in the place of someone who has never, ever, known anything different, whose parents and grandparents have done the same thing, and whose expectations are rock bottom because there has never appeared to be a better way, whosae education is minimal because that's how it is and no-one expected them to be otherwise, whose family are no strangers to the coppers hand on the collar, and who does not imagine any other way of life. What would encourage you to change??
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
6 January 2009
22:3012246bern
i have banged on about tax credit on here much to the chagrin of loadsa barry.
he rightly points out that the system is difficult to understand.
however, this is the first time in the history of the welfare state that an initiative has come, that lures people off of the sofa, away from jeremy kyle, to do a days work.
i know of a chap not far from me with 4 kids, his parents are couch potatoes, that are perpetuating the eay of life.
he now works on a building site doing unskilled for a local dodgy landlord, earns 200 used oncers.
the tax credit system then pays his rent and adds another 150 to him in a brown envelope.
much better than when he was sleeping until midday.
the result is that his kids see him going out in the morning at 7 am coming back at 4 pm and will think that this is normal.
much better than the blue mentality of just paying them to stay at home and demonising them.
