Bern, I am having amazing trouble interpreting your sentiment that "sex isn't a right". I think in all the years I have used the Internet I have never, EVER read such a strange, misguided, and frankly ludicrous statement. Ever! "Sex isn't a right" is quite possibly THE most Catholic thing one could ever say. "Rape" isn't a right - "Abuse" isn't a right - sex, on the other hand, should be the most basic, base, fundamental right of every individual of legal age in the whole world. No matter if people are married or playing the field, sex is the ULTIMATE human right, the choice to share the act of love in a relationship, or just for the fun of the conquest, between consenting adults, is the right that leads all rights in this sorry world of ours. What manner of person would ever claim that sex isn't a human right? I am in a state of disbelief!
Sex and the desire to have sex are natural and healthy, formed in the most positive parts of our most basic instincts, enjoyable in practice, and good for all involved. It is only the unhealthy attitudes towards sex, in particular led by the Catholic church who regard it as sinful, dirty, something to feel guilty about, that we would ever question it in this manner.
I would also challenge your view that being celibate doesn't lead to abuse. No, it probably doesn't in most "normal" cases. But when you figure that many people try to be celibate in order to live up to the expected standards of an external authority system then this CAN and DOES lead to abuse. Catholic priests who abuse choir boys or whoever do so NOT because they are medically compromised, nor widowed, nor suffering some natural aversion, but because their faith TELLS THEM HOW TO LIVE and this instruction clearly goes against their nature leading to this type of terrible inner conflict.
In my world there are no such things as "sins", only "crimes", and sex is neither. Abuse, on the other hand, is crime and should attract appropriate punishment instead of expensive cover-ups as is widely reported against the Catholic church.
Sex is natural and healthy, but is isn't a "right", because it isn't a commodity. And those choosing celibacy have made a choice, are not following dictats. Freedom of Speech is a right, freedom of movement is a right, but sex, which by its very nature happens (more or less) between 2 humans, is a matter of relationships and personal engagement involving the use of our selves and our bodies, and cannot be "granted" or "allowed" by a charter or government, isn't enshrined in constitutions and cannot be voted on. Get real.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
In a related story to the above ...I dont know if any of you saw the George Gently detective story two sundays ago. It is of course fiction but its set in the sixties and it had a very miserable tale about abuse in a childrens home. Not very appetising viewing for a sunday night I have to admit.
But one of the aspects of the programmers research, which I thought was totally accurate, was the jaw dropping dawning on the police that such a crime could actually happen. In those days people actually did not believe such a crime could possibly exist, so bad was it to contemplate such goings on. It really was off the scale.
In Ireland much the same thing happened... priests doing such a thing...impossible!! said everyone. Its a crime so bad it couldnt really be happening. We all know different now.
This is why these things were easy to get away with for so long. The clergy in Ireland had massive power. The entire population, you couldnt NOT go to mass, listened to sermons on sunday morning and woebetide any politician that got in their way.
In hindsight its easy. We now know the flaws, the problems of deprivation of sex and so on, but perhaps even then the motivation for many of the clergy was to hide their homosexuality, which was also illegal, yes it was a totally safe haven to hide your leanings in the catholic church. Illegal homosexuality was also featured in the programme mentioned. So it was a totally different world then...
homosexuality was hidden and didnt exist within the clergy!!
child abuse was hidden and didnt exist within the clergy or anywhere!!
this is what they would all have you beleive at the time.
this is what society wanted or to put it another way...if it did exist they didnt want to know.
That's an interesting perspective Paul. I remember a time in my own life when I had never heard of, nor would have ever contemplated the possibility of, child abuse as a reality in the world. When the Internet age took off, child abuse as a subject of public knowledge had its touchpaper lit, and the web raised awareness of what is clearly an age-old problem and probably even created a few paedophiles along the way. In some ways this is why the web has been a force for good in getting these subjects of deep tabboo into the open; the bad side of course being that it has also propagated the problem further to some extent. In the information age it is (quite rightly) far more difficult to keep your sick perversions a secret, whether you are an individual or a member of a large powerful group. But is that the right analogy to make or has it simply become more expensive for large powerful groups to keep such scandals quiet in the wake of the digital age? Looking at the Catholic Church's massive budget put aside for dealing with these cases one has to wonder!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
it was an interesting post from paul, the blurring of distinction between church and state in ireland at that time.
imagine "father ted" being on the box then.
i think things were worse for the women then, we used to have so many young irish girls(usually from rural areas) coming here for an abortion.
much better than giving birth in ireland and bringing shame on the family.
then there were the girls that became nurses here just to have a life free of restrictions.
i never knew about the budget that rick refers to, hardly shows the chiurch in a good light if they take such a thing for granted.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
it was an interesting post from paul, the blurring of distinction between church and state in ireland at that time.
imagine "father ted" being on the box then.
i think things were worse for the women then, we used to have so many young irish girls(usually from rural areas) coming here for an abortion.
much better than giving birth in ireland and bringing shame on the family.
then there were the girls that became nurses here just to have a life free of restrictions.
i never knew about the budget that rick refers to, hardly shows the chiurch in a good light if they take such a thing for granted.
That budget is simply mopping up the old cases that are only now coming to light. PaulB has it right: we have only recently allowed ourselves to be appalled by child abuse because we never recognised it. In context historically it becomes easier to see the triggers and understand the background. Ireland was a unique environment for many reasons including economic, historic and social. I would bet that if we scrathched the surface of many countries we would find similar abuses historically, not all attached to religions. The Communists, the USA in the 1940s and 1950s, the Baltics. Nowehere is free of taint, but if we screw up our eyes and squint into the past we might be able to see it a little better.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
This is a miserable topic but I just wanted to add another bit to it following the publication of that devastating but oh so accurate Irish Report yesterday. I noticed that the TV news coverage on BBC was very accurate in my view. They got so much right...even down to the total state deference to the Catholic Church then.
Essentially the Church ran the state with a little help from the government, but certainly in all matters moral the government stood well out of the way. Your local MP lived in fear of falling foul of the sunday morning sermon..a sermon every single member of society had to go and listen to. The total population had to go..and go they did...boozers , writers, whiners, bus drivers, etc. ( there were a few exceptions like other religions but a tiny minority).
Society also insisted on you getting married. There were many more women than men, and from an early age the pressure to get married from all mothers everywhere was enormous...and yes the pressure was also enormous to conform to the religious stereotype.
So what to do if you were homosexual in this frantic marriage environment. You couldnt admit to it as it would have brought total shame on your family...they would have been social outcasts, much in the same way as any girl who got pregnant outside of wedlock. This couldnt happen, so the female was shipped either to England or to the nuns, poste haste.
But yes back to being homosexual. In this marital Catholic hotbed of rightousness you simply couldnt be homosexual..the enormity of the shame on your family would be too too much, people would pray for you to be "cured". It is probably impossible now for people to understand the pressure.
So... avoid the pain barrier and join the one escape route ...the priesthood, the religious orders of monks, the christian brothers etc where nobody asked any questions.
The religious orders had lots of money so could accommodate as many people as wanted to join. Those joining were trained up and no doubt with Roman money were despatched to all corners of the globe, particularly America...where their repressed lifestyle eventually emerged, as we know now.
Likewise in Ireland a history of abuse took place second to absolutely nowhere else. I am not writing here against homosexuality, but pointing out the unholy miserable lives of repression and denial they were subjected to. This in my opinion is what eventually led to the enormous quantity of abuse cases under one particular umbrella...the Catholic Church.
PaulB, even thinking about it all I can smell the candles and incense. And the fear.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Ah yes indeed Bern.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
Good posting PaulB
Hope fully life in Ireland and the Church have moved on from those dark days.
I fail to understand why there are no prosecutions????
Although brought up by devout Catholic parents and attending an all boys Catholic Grammar school I never witnessed any abuse other than a damn good flogging which to be honest most of us deserved!!!
I also attended a Franciscan Monastery in the early 70s where I considered the option of doing 3 years as a Brother before going into the service.It wasn't for me but again I was only shown kindness with no hint of any 'hows your father eh up missus' behaviour.
Maybe I was lucky but there are still a lot of Priests and Nuns who dedicate their life to God and helping others less abled than us who deserve praise.So although the recent publication has highlighted grave wrong doings in the church we should try not to tar them all with the same brush.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
As I said in my original posting SOME