howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
the prime minister has announced in the commons that the 14 people who died on "bloody sunday" were unarmed and innocent.
finally some justice for the families that have lost loved ones.
why did it take 38 years for the truth to come out?
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
why did it take 38 years for the truth to come out?....and cost nearly £200million
My late brother was in Ireland on that day with his regiment and a colleague of mine was in the paras (not sure he was on the scene..) I obviously can't comment but both of them said ,having never met,and on different occasions,that during that period tensions were very high and the army were suffering losses from snipers. I suppose its easy for us to sit and judge 38 years later in the calm of our own homes but these were young laads fighting on what they considered to be home soil in a 'war' that nobody really wanted.
The British Army have committed unspeakable acts throughout their long history but whether we should now bring to court those soldiers to face a trial......I 'm not so sure...wish I had the answers.
Lets hope we learn from this terrible incident and ensure it never happens again.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
very true about snipers, the army view now is that the paras were not the correct regiment for this job.
many ulster people said at the time that police should run security not the army, problem was the royal ulster constabulary were almost entirely protestant and could not be relied upon from the neutrality point of view.
i doubt that the soldiers will face trial, most gave statements on the basis of freedom from prosecution.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
I think the report shows a remarkable and stark clarity...but its just in the first few minutes so havent had a chance to absorb much of it as yet...but this is what the early reports are saying. So as I understand it the report found that there were no snipers at the time of the bloody sunday massacre..an oft told red herring that 'sniper' one, as the soldiers gave false accounts as is now clear. One soldier it is beleived according to the earlier inquiry killed four people...yet this report has now found that the killings were not justified.
is there going to be any kind of justice one asks oneself.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
No justice is possible after 38 years. The wrong troops with the wrong training in the wrong place, that was the problem.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i think that is correct barry, i seem to remember reading that the paras were suddenly dumped there and confronted with the march without knowing what to expect from it.
the ministry of defence have to carry the can for the slaughter, all those involved would no longer be there, i think that the campaigners are now happy that the names of the victims have been cleared.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
T'S TOUGH JUSTICE
But hopefully all learnt from
Think Mr Cameron made gd speech in commons today on it
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Its not justice yet Keef...just acknowledgment that they did it. I too appreciated Mr Camerons speech today..there was no dithering or shilly shallying or squirming to try and get out of it..he owned up to the responsibility, which is greatly appreciated.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
yes boy dave went up in my estimation with his unequivocal apology on our behalf.
10 years and umpteen millions spent on legal fees but justice done thanks to our old friend tony blair reopening the matter.
when doing so he stated that it was not about recriminations or anything, simply about finding out the truth of what happened that day.
briefly looking at the report, two things caught my eye.
1) a soldier after shooting one of the marchers marched up to the dying man and shot him again.
i hope this psycho stands trial.
2) martin mcguiness was described as being at the march and armed, now a part of the establishment in the six counties.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
HOWARD
You opened a can of worms there.
in the time this incident happened the IRA was going around BOMBING/BLOWING UP members of the public and admitting it, and Mr Mguiness was at the time one of them.
So whilst it's correct to learn from the mistakes made, but all these years later we also have to respect the troubled times in Northern ireland at that time.
Some man was on TV saying it's right to have this enquiry, but what about all the recrimination bombings that had no public enquiry.
I have to say I do find it difficult when m guiness on telly condemning the army when in his time he has admitted he has killed
And don't forget the tragic bombings and loss of life when the IRA bombed innocent people.
I dont take sides, but it is a difficult one.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
quite right keith, however terrorist acts were treated as criminal offences, no enquiry needed.
times have changed and the people of the "north of ireland" to quote that creep gerry adams, now enjoy a normal existence, though i have to turn the telly off whenever adams or mcguiness appear.
Paul B,
You ask if there is going to be any justice,why?? Will you be happy to see proceedings drag on for another 38 years??
There has to come a time when the nation says enough of this and let us go forward.
Before any one starts banging there dustbin lids, (an early warning system in the bogside at the time)
Let the nation say sorry to those who have suffered and if necessary compensate them. How ever we should not lose sight of the circumstances that led to this incident. The systematic imposition of religious intolerance from both sides, the ejection of innocent people from there homes purely on religious grounds the attack,and murder of british soldiers in the name of freedom, despite the repeated requests of both religious communities for the intervention of the british army. this is how northern Ireland expressed its thanks for the lives lost on there behalf.
It would crass stupidity to say that in the year 2010 those "friendly revelers" of 1972 were only playing a game of catchy, catchy, with the troops, when in fact what they would have done was kill any squaddy they could lay there hands on
as happenned to those two corporals in a car who drove into an IRA march and were dragged from the car and brutally murdered. Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe the bodies of those two victims were hung from lamp posts as a warning to the locals not to help the british army protect them,how ironic.
So in conclusion lets face the facts if the people of N Ireland had not been the cause of the troubles then it follows that there would have been no need for british squaddies to be on the streets
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Well said Jimmy
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
jimmy
with all due respect you are missing the point here, the evil toerags that were part of the sectarian divide were not represented on this civil rights march.
the people murdered were ordinary folk that were trying to demonstrate against injustice, none were armed.
let us not forget either that our government and that of the irish free state did nothing to even out things in the north, thus creating divisions.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,699
With respect Howard you are incorrect -
Saville clearly found that McGuinness )and other Republican paramilitaries) was present and in all probability armed with a machine gun, though Saville acknowledges there is no evidence that he fired it.
Jimmy's point is well made
It serves no purpose to prosecute the ex soldiers and in fact could well open old wounds between the two sides of the sectarian divide. Northern Ireland MUST continue to look forward and cement the peace that now exists.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Howard Mcsweeney,
Howard, how misguided can you be. Unfortunately I cannot personnally show you news reel of the march in 1972. But it is a matter on public record that there were terrorists stationed in the Divis flats firing arms in the direction of the british troops, now you tell me What would be your response, I wonder??
You cannot seriously suggest that the evil toe rags as you refer to them were not represented in the riots,surely not.
It is now accepted that the people murdered were "Ordinary folk" but it has taken an inquiry lasting twelve years and a budget of195 millions of pounds to establish that fact.
It is a fallacy to state that neither the british and republican governments did nothing to try and alleviate the problems of northern ireland. There has and are cross border discussions to iron out difficulties between the two states and that has been the position since the Irish free state was declared in 1921 by Eamonn De-Valera. No great lover of the british,or the british army I may add.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
ross
i stated in post 6 that the report asserted that mcguiness was there and armed.
jimmy
no shots were fired from the divis flats.
Jimmys post just demonstrates the continuing bias. Howard is right - no shots were fired from the Divis. I feel for all sides here - those young lads in the paras, thrown in and hung out to dry - they are older men now, different people. The innocent INNOCENT people who were shot, those poor young 17 year old boys and the others, shot for being there. South Africa has many faults, but it showed the world that peace and reconciliation are not just words but living forms and we should take a leaf out of their book. It is still a work in progress, but the work has been started.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
BERN;
I think you are correct and it's clear the findings are clear, but I don't feel it would serve any purpose taking this any further with these army persons.
Time now to move on and continue the good work being done in Ireland.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Jimmy although your first post is long you are taking a very simplistic view and going in the face of the Report and seeking justification for the killings. The Prime Minister and a studious report of 12 years takes a very different view..after exhaustive research The Report says there was "no justification" for the killings.
This has now been exhaustively accepted.
People were demondstrating all across N Ireland for their rights, which is fair enough. They should not be killed for doing that. In comparison some woman got hit by a policeman at a demo in London recently and there was uproar. But imagine if it wasnt just hitting but they had killed 13 people....lets get some persepective.
The last paragraph on post 12 employs daft logic Jimmy. If we hadnt of this, we would have had that...if I hadnt of gone to a bad school I wudda cudda maybe not been a serial killer. If the soldiers hadnt been in Ireland it wouldnt have happened..if they had of been on a beach in..etc etc
Ross I think we do need justice in my view. It would be justice that would in fairness take into account the 38 years since it happened, and the level of stress in the difficult circumstances at the time. The judicial system is currently, through DNA, jailing people who committed crimes yonks ago...so the time factor isnt a real issue.