Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
15 December 2008
09:2610963Many of you will have seen the ungodly sight of President George Bush ducking from the flight of a pair of well worn brown shoes yesterday. It was at a safely secured press conference but one journalist, Im assuming he was a journalist, took careful aim with one of his shoes then let fly. George saw it coming and was able to duck, as a shoe travels less faster than a bullet. But no sooner had George ducked then the same individual took aim with his second shoe and the President had to carefully duck again. The security guys must have been outside having a fag!
This took place in central Baghdad and really just about sums up the Wests whole incursion into Iraq. WE are hated far and wide, and even in secured and virtually trouble free Baghdad they hate the foreign intruders even more. A BBC News crew went out onto the streets of Baghdad to talk to the people about the incident and everybody, like everybody, was with the shoe thrower...
"Get the Americans out of here!!"
was the cry.
Once again it draws my attention to the baloney of hearts and minds. I saw all this oul cobblers in Ireland....
'Bringing the soldiers in for a cuppa tea'
'Catholics and Protestants play together'
all heartwarming hearts and minds type stories, loved by the media and the government of the day, but utter baloney on the ground. People reading it or seeing it here in the UK in Hudersfield or Halifax might think its true for a while but.....
I can see this same thing with Iraq. No hearts and minds are ever won. The propped up government doesnt carry the people with it and when we all pull out after too many of our own dead the whole place will almost certainly resort to misery on a grand scale.
So a departing George Bush, perhaps believing in all this media hogwash, and on his farewell goodwill tour too, might well have expected to be greeted with flowers and chocolates, but no all he got was a pair of smelly shoes delivered without the help of UPS.
15 December 2008
21:5711017With you there PaulB - lovely Irish publicity with absolutely no substance whatever......went down well with those who wanted to believe!!
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
16 December 2008
09:2411027Yes Bern, Im not trying to open any old Irish wounds but just making the point about the propoganda type stories from the other side of the picture. The people on the ground in Iraq are not seeing it the same way as the western media. Although to be fair to the media the BBC did present the other side of the story. But the constant stream of western government press releases stating rose coloured achievement is often pie in the sky.
To switch countries for a moment and to carry on my anti war position, I see Gordon Brown is not listening to me at all (which is such a shock) as he is now sending yet more troops to Afghanistan. The announcement made yesterday. I see this as lunacy as I beleive it will in the longterm achieve nothing.
One Taliban commander said yesterday
"a year ago I had only 8 comrades fighting the infidel, now I have 500 "
That about says it all I guess.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
16 December 2008
19:3311046sadly that seems to be the case, every time an allied bomb misses its target and hits an afghan house, hospital or mosque another 1000 recruits sign up.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
16 December 2008
19:4611048Nuke the poppy Fields and then pull the troops out.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
17 December 2008
08:2311053That's what they should be destroying - maybe they already are.
Roger
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
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17 December 2008
08:5611058Roger they are not successful there either. A report on the R4 Today programme a few weeks back said quite clearly that poppy production had increased in Afghanistan. This was an earth shattering item as far as many were concerned, because it displayed in basic practicality that the 'occupation' isnt working. I dont understand how poppy production can be up either. Its baffling, but up it is.
Even with the might of the western forces there, 3 out of the 7 main roads into the capitol Kabul are under Taliban control. The miltary commander spoke to the programme and agreed this was the case.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
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17 December 2008
17:1411071napalm might work better worked fairly well in vietnam.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
17 December 2008
17:2911072Worked so well Brian that the Americans lost.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
17 December 2008
20:5111085but done a wonderfull job on the under growth
17 December 2008
22:4911087Seeing the human consequences of Nepalm I am not sure I feel comfortable with some of this thread...........
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
17 December 2008
22:5711089can be arranged bern just call up the us airforce and they will do the rest.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
17 December 2008
23:3611091i feel uncomfortable too about napalm.
i can still see those farmers and villagers trying to put the fire out on their bodies and just spreading it.
the children too.
we will not stop the growth of the poppy.
subsistence farmers exist on it and the taleban will control all access to the areas where it is grown.
the taleban are not much different to the colombian drug barons inasmuch as they ensure that most poor people locally to where the plant is cultivated are addicted.
it is simplistic western arrogance to think that
a) we can win by brute force.
b) we can win the hearts and minds of the people.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
18 December 2008
07:0211093Joking apart.
90% of the worlds nastiest drug..Heroin ..originates from Afghanistan and unless we do something about it now whilst we are in that country as guests of the Afghan government the problem will not only escalate but kill and damage millions of youngsters around the world.
GM fields of fruit and veg pale into insignificance in comparison to the poppy fields of Afghanistan.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
18 December 2008
08:3111099I hate to start anyone off, but clearly this is market forces, ie Capitalism. The demand is there, it gets filled. The product is illegal - people will break the law to sell and buy it. There are vulnerable (addicted or impoverished) people - they will be exploited. It is obvious!!!! It's not as simple as blasting the poppy fields - it is a cultural and political issue and will only be resolved politically.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
18 December 2008
08:3811101I agree with Marek - we must destroy those poppy fields; especially while we are still there.
Roger
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
18 December 2008
10:4211108Bern
It's not just about blasting the fields although I concede that is an attractive option it's also about replacing the Poppy fields with other sustainable crops so the farmers can eek out a living.Re-educating the farmers and reducing the production of heroin is not only in their interests but in all our interests.
But until that process is in place and working we have a responsibility to ruin their poppy field crops and reduce considerably the amount of heroin hitting the markets.Basically the same method that operates in this country when they find a cannabis factory..the plants the heating and the cash is taken off the manufacturers therefore making it difficult for them to operate in the future.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
18 December 2008
15:0611128Blasting the fields reduces the heroin available but also reduces many many people to even further poverty - it has to be a tandem process. I cannot argue with the drive behind it - the reduction of devastating drugs and all they bring - but it has to be managed responsibily.
Guest 644- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,214
18 December 2008
17:0311135The problem becomes practically insurmountable unless one systematically weeds out corrupt officials in Iran, Pakistan and Iraq who control the flow of drugs, bribed by Afghani drug barons. The officials are frequently at the very top levels of government, not just at local level.
I heard of a case recently where eleven truck loads of top grade heroin were detected at a Pakistan border checkpoint from Afghanistan. The border guards were instructed to allow the shipment to proceed following a phonecall from by a ministerial official - one can only speculate as to the size of the payment the official was in receipt of to allow this. Clearly the convoy was expected.
Even the brother of Karzai, the President of Afghanistan, has extremely deep involvement in narcotics, notably opium and heroin smuggling. With such deep corruption across the whole region, what hope have a few thousand NATO troops got to collapse the drug trade?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
18 December 2008
20:1611159just to add to that last post from phil, if we wiped out the crop in afghanistan, a mixture of bent coppers/politicos and afghanistan in various countries would spring up overnight to make up the shortfall.
not sure about this 90% figure though, it is convenient to hoist all the blame on a current foe.
i believe that colombia has supplied a few wraps over the years too.