Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#1
Given the present anti-politician mood Douglas Carswell MP and Daniel Hannan MEP, have already the perfect policy response in their book The Plan: Twelve Months to Renew Britain .
Below is a very brief outline of the ideas in their book. While some things are much more controvercial than others (the NHS for instance) I personally would not disagree with any of it.
* Clean Up Westminster by abolishing MP's perks, binding MPs by the same laws as everyone else and decreasing the size of HMG and the House of Commons.
* A Return to Law, Order and Accountability with directly-elected sheriffs, local control of police and local control of prosecutions.
* Supremacy of the (Reformed) Parliament, by scrapping the Human Rights Act, withdrawing from the European Convention Human Rights and reserving certain powers exclusively for Parliament.
* Independence for State Schools, by scrapping the National Curriculum, granting parents rights to take their children where they'd get a good education and getting HMG out of classrooms.
* True Localism, by aboloshing QUANGOs, granting real powers to counties and replacing VAT with a local sales tax to fund it.
* Putting Patients in Control, by allowing people to opt out of the NHS and into private insurance, retaining a strong safety net and incentivizing prevention rather than cure.
* Neighbourhood Welfare to secure social justice; fighting poverty and allocation of benefits to be local.
* A Great Repeal Bill to get rid of burdensome and costly red tape, provide a mechanism for continuous repeal, and introduce sunset clauses on new laws.
* An Independent Britain, with foreign policy controlled by Parliament and replacement of our current relationship with the EU by a genuine free trade zone.
* Introduce Direct Democracy with the right of citizens to propose laws directly, referenda to block bad new laws and local referenda established as a new way of thinking about democracy.
They have some very radical ideas here but many of them are very much about getting politicians out of our lives and reducing the power and role of the State. That is just what we need.....
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#2
interesting stuff, though some a bit vague.
local control of police and prosecutions?
how does this work in practice?
quangos, ok get shot of them, but why does money have to go to county councils? why not to district councils.?
they are better qualified to know where to spend it.
i don't understand the bit about opting about of the nhs, anyone can do this now.
independent britain, spot on there, a free trade zone is enough.
direct democracy sounds good, but will not work in practice, after all who will decide when a referendum is needed?
local referendums?
difficult enough to get people to vote as it is, would turn out to be costly with little response.
good to see a debate though.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#3
balony,poppycock and bull poo.in other words utter rubbish spouted by rubbish politisions.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#4
try commism or put this country under a dictatership then it might work.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#5
am i to understand that you disagree with the points raised brian?
surely they must be a discussion starting point?
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#6
howard,its biased and defitly a non starter.people like the to mentiond along with barry and a few others need to take there heads out of the sand and open there eyes to what is truely happening around them.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#7
So whats your point Brian? Are you actually going to discuss the points raised and explain why you think what you do. Its easy to pour scorn without placing a reasoned debate or argument.
Howard these are just brief outlines so, yes - some is vague. For detail you need to go to the document itself, as you say they are discussion starting points.
I am aware of the answers to a couple of points you raise. The local police control and public presecution service. We would elect a person to be the local 'sherrif'. They would respond to local demand as they would be subject to re-election.
County Councils as a larger boundary would be better suited to local sales taxes. Add to that locally collected and locally spent Council tax and Business Tax we have a better system of local Government funding enabling greater LG independence. Exactly how the tax collection powers between the layers of local Government would work is another matter. The sums as a whole work out though and that is a good starting point.
On the NHS, no we cant opt out now. Those of us who pay Private Med insurance are not opted out, we pay twice. There are a number of ways this could work but I think it is important to recognise to co-dependance of private and NHS medicine. I would provide a gesture to encourage greater take up of of PMI (no I dont sell it) by allowing tax relief on contributions. At the same time I would work a system by which there are seamless services between NHS and the Private sector that would benefit patients as a whole.
I do think that there is more room for more direct democracy. You are right that if done wrong it would be a problem but done the right way it would be a great benefit.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#8
Dan Hannan nand Douglas Carswell have written a book that you can buy (I haven't bought it) and it does give greater details on how all those ideas could be implemented.
There has to be a new approach to running this once great Country, or should I say ruining it ?
Every part of our lives and all those statutory bodies like the NHS, Education, Crime etc. are worse now than ever, not better as we are told.
Start afresh.
Roger
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
#9
I can't say I know anything about Douglas Carswell and what I do know about Dan Hannan I have to say I really dislike. It seems he is one of these guys that has grown up with a sort of British Imperialist mentality, "I say, aren't they poor and rather undeveloped" type thing. I always think that some of these people would happily have frozen development at 1851, when classes and hierarchy were clear and Britain was light years in front of the rest of the world. I should imagine that Douglas is the same. I find this a common trait in the Conservative party, they are generally individual that have always been 'quite well off' socially or economically (I don't necessarily mean wealthy)
My round about point here is that these men have never 'needed' anything. If there wasn't the NHS, I'd put money on the fact that them and their parents could afford private health care. In the absence of a state funded education system I have no doubt that they would have still been educated, again I'd place money on them attending public school (the very nature of the term 'public school', demonstrating the amazing development we have already made!) Now however intelligent these men are, which I know the answer to be very intelligent; their situation, education, position in society and for that fact, their intelligence, is nothing to do with them 'working hard'. These two upper class chaps are the people 'with' Unless they are highly empathic and sympathetic to those who have 'needed', those 'without', that have not been blessed with intelligence, fortune and a good upbringing, it makes it very hard for them to make some of these statements. The 'NHS being a mistake' comment being a prime example. It's much like people that run down heroin addicts, you just simply do not know their individual circumstances to be able to make a generalisation. I'm not asking for absolute empiricism in these matters, just a more of a sense of empathy.
However many of these points are very good. Being a firm believer in Socialism I think the democratic systems (and I use that term loosely) have become too complicated to effectively serve society and groups, as I believe these systems perhaps have an optimum size. We need common law, shared goals and beliefs as a nation but a centralised approach can have much the same effect as those that judge all heroin addict as having the same situation, for this reason I agree with the concept. The needs of people in one area of the country could be significantly different to those in another part. Enabling poverty to be dealt with at a more local level is a great idea and we obviously know our areas of deprivation better than anyone in central government or county level. However our spend would be higher than that of say Tumbridge Well, so who decided on the allocation of this type of funding. I am a working class man with a family living in a derived area so my taxes are higher than somewhere like Tenterden, what do I do? I can tell you what most people would do and that is move! And so we do need a centralised approach for much of this! The same ideas can be applied to education and health care, so we must be careful. 12 month plan...do me a favour, although there is a good idea in there somewhere.
Direct democracy is something I strongly believe in, with everyone being able to influence decision. I think some of this could be achieved through 'Charter 88' and a written constitution, something that local democratic processes would have to adhere to in my mind. Again we have to be careful not to fall into some kind of crazy 'absolute democratic' situation. Sometimes we don't always know what's best for us, god know I would never have brushed my teeth and although we moan about 'nanny state-isms' but the odd advert on TV does remind me I do have a liver and if I abuse it, it cost everyone!
Clean up Westminster, I think there is absolute consensus on this one, enough said!
I could comment on all of these but really need some breakfast, but will say that on the basis of their take on the NHS, I could never really take them to representing me. You can't opt out of paying for military funding, even if you don't agree with their actions. Protecting the health of the nation is just as important as protecting it's freedom, we should never forget this.
Roger, I agree there should be a new approach but we are not ruined. Medicine and operation; the extent and access of knowledge and skills; and the sophistication and globalisation of crime have all got significantly more complex. The NHS, education system and police force are struggling to keep up with the constant change. Things are 'different' not just 'worse'. Some things are better, let's remember that. You really have to stop reading the Daily Mail!
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#10
roger,i agree that this goverment [labour] and proberly the torys will be ruining this conutry for generations to come.with the labour and conservatives couldnt careless attitude towards the genrael public.allthough many people would like to see the back of the eu and returning back to being indipendant colonial consirering bach stabing way of life like we had in the edwardian and victorean times,to me thats going backwards.to those who look forward to the future is in europe,by applying for things in the correct way and pushing our case we would be better of in lots of ways.the german/france monopoly can and will be broken if we as a country stands up for our selfs instead of cowering in the background.is that better debate for you barry?.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#11
Not cowering, brian - getting out of the EU farce is what we need.
DT1. I have met Dan and I like him, I like his attitudes, politics and I share his values. You dismiss traditional values and sneer at them as so many socialists do, but our sick society, as also reflected in our sick Parliament, needs a good dose of these.
Douglas Carswell is the type of MP who you can call 'Honourable', anchored in these traditional values. He is one of those not caught up in the expenses scandal and was in a lot of trouble from other MPs ages ago for publishing his expenses voluntarily, they ddid not like him doing it as it showed them up. I think he is very much one of the 'up and coming' MPs.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
#12
Whether or not I like them is irrelevant. I do like some of these ideas, but as I mentioned about local taxation, these are just ideas and the implications could be just extend the inequalities that are at the root of our societies 'sickness'. We could land up with areas like Dover getting sicker. Not wanting to be a cliche, but money goes to money. The rich would get richer (in the sociological sense) and the poor could get poorer)...a recuring theme in Conservative thinking.
By no means do I dismiss traditional values, just assess theire relevance to the present. As I have said on another thread, what was right in the past isn't necessarily right now, the present is for the living. (I think I nicked that from Thomas Paine) Many elements of my life are very traditional as are many of my views. The incongruence of most traditionalists (Daily Mail Reading types, conservative with a small 'c') is their blind subscription to capitalism, the catalyst of progress and change!
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#13
BUM
I just did a reply about 500 words and it disappeared got to start all over again!!!
Firstly Barryw's post is again promoting tory stuff and good on him but I will just give my viewpoints and hopefully this time it won';t disappear
1;I'm only ion favour of downsizing MP's if they can be made accountable and if we
downsize can they realy represent such big areas? other perks yet, look at em
and see if they can be done away with completely
2 Having local contriol of decisions is all well and good but a lot of work needs to go
into that to get the right people on this locally
3 There are a number of good human rights issues so im not in favour of scrapping
them in total
4 Education, im all for making sure every child should get the best education possible
what would happen to the poorer schools under barryw system? sometimes not
the schools fault
5 Yep, Quango's like Dpover pride!!!! and don't agree with more power to counties
as they are to remote, why do we need 3 councils? very costly, do we actually
need a county council?
6 by opting out of NHS and into private medicine is all ok if you have the dosh to do
so, my worry would be what happens to those that can't afford to do it will there
still be a NHS the every day person in the street can't afford it so there are real
fears there
7 Yep on benefits etc all local yep, but maybe also an opportunity for those on
benefits to put something back into the commnity, everyone can do some kind
of work, i reckon doing so many hours a week community work and if not
benefits reduced hard but required
8 I would probably disagree with repealing many laws but no detail so can't
comment, and more laws, don't know what they may be so won't comment
anti trade union laws in there?? lol
9 Not sure we could have a free trade zone now, but we have a lot more to sort out
on home soli before getting involved in the wider arena
10 local decisions is all well and good with the right people, and a lot of work would
need to go into training and making sure the right people locally were in place
blimey was only going to do a couple of lnes
won't comment on Rogers usual stuff
let the debate begin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
#14
Didn't Hitler have a 1000 year plan very similar to the 12 month plan?.
Provide for the chosen few and bugger the rest...or if fact it was far worse he adopted the final solution.
Watch this space they (theTories) will want to bring back hanging next for those that don't agree and conform to their way of thinking and ideology.
"At least he's got an ology" said Maureen Lipman..
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#15
another case of closeing the doors and ignoring whats going on around us and loseing benifits through not claiming it.and if you believe all labour/tory spin and scare mongering you will believe anything.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#16
blimey marek/brian
= I tried to keep the politics out of my reply(which aint easy when yer been around as long as me lol!!
just gave my small viewpoint, of course you have to read between the lines of barryw's postings,
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
#17
Fox hunting will be back on the agenda as well,things don't change with the Tories it is all always will be the best for the those who can afford it,for the rest what ever is left.
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#18
going a bit off of the subject john, regarding hunting with dogs, however, since the subject has been brought up, the police chiefs have instructed local constabularies to cease monitoring hunts.
in effect, the hunting ban has been reversed without going through the commons.
Guest 686- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 556
#19
There seems to be more than a touch of "back to basics" in the list in my opinion, and maybe that is what is needed - without interference from Brussels!
Phil West
If at first you don't succeed, use a BIGGER hammer!!
Sid Pollitt
#20
It cant be that broken if it can be repaired in less than a year! I too when reading this thought it was harking back to John Major's warm beer and cricket nonsense. They dont seem to realise that we dont all live in villages with greens and have moats round our houses. These idiots should keep to their villages and leave us alone.