Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
It does not matter whether it is outsourced or not really Phil. What matters is the contract, contract penalties and contract supervision. There is no reason why standards should fall through outsourcing, far from it. The levels of service are bbased on the contract and the terms must include the means to keep them to the set standards.
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,019
Yes we must work together ..Keith
Barry I dont know what arrangements were made with the Events Group ,however with the fair they have part of Pencester Road coned off so they can get the lorries in .The Coach Company expect a liitle disrupption,The Fair are given a few hours to do this .
With the lenght of the buses it is hard enough for them to park up as it is .Plus you have the Taxi Rank and Marks and Spencers Car Park .I dont know how the Taxi Rank got permission .The Tesco bus and St Radigunds operate from the stop nearest to the entrance to Pencester.Sometimes the buses que right back to Maison Dieu .
When you get the Folkestone Double Decker by the office plus the Deal bus in front of that the 89 which is also a Double Decker and then the Canterbury bus plus River and the Tesco and St Radigunds /Not to forget the National Express .Its no wonder the driver are all trying to park ,and with the parking opposite it is difficult..
I think your chum Nigel wants to spend a day in Pencester I see it all the time
Still they dont want to listen to me anymore /
I was at least in the town and I had the time .
It was not a well handled situation .
.
ker
Whether or not there is a reason for standards to drop with outsourcing has no impact on the fact that they do in practice. We have seen it with disastrous consequences in the NHS and are seeing it now with SITA. Contract reviews are clearly important and will go some way to maintaining standards, but in practice without the old team committment that exists when people are directly employed and managed by the organisation for whom they perform, standards drop. people need more than pay and sanctions to motivate them.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
BERN/.PHIL W
Yep, trying here to be positive, like Phil said, the groundsmen (persons?) had pride in the job they did, and didn't it look good at that time.
Today if its Sita and under contract they do ONLY what is in the contract and no more, any more costs dosh, in the long run it costs more.
let me give you another example, im having a running battle with Sita in another area, rubbish collection/recycling/grass cutting.
RUBBISH COLLECTION
I'v had to a number of times get the supervisor down to show him the mess left by sita after theyt have thrown black sacks up a bank to save climbing steps, en d result bags open, rubbish goes everywhere do they pick it up NOPE local residents do, and why should they?
RECYCLING
Got off to bad start, having encouraged people to use it boxes didnt turmn up when scheme started, then grass not collected from doorstep has to be put top of bank why???? all puts people off bothering
mess is left after they leave
GRASS CUTTING
I phoned the council to ask why the people who cut the grass then just leave the grass behind?
answer its not in the contract to collect it
end result it gets trodden into everyones houses.
All frustrating aint it
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
So true Bern, it really is no coincidence that standards drop with outsourcing. Contracts have little effect when motivating workers, park keepers had an amazing effect (not just superficial) on the parks they kept. It also makes sense that the organisation between employer and employee is simpler than that between employer, contractor, and contracted employee and as a result more efficient. A number of years ago we contracted out the cleaning where I work, the mistake was soon realised and rectified.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Bern, DT1 - like I say it is all down to what is specified in the contract. There is no reason why a contract should not specify a dedicated Park keeper. The thing is with the right contract supervision and the right penalty system for failure to meet specifications (maybe a reward for exceeding specs is possible) there is absolutely no reason why outsourced services cannot be superior.
Councils will draw up a contract and can be very specific about the levels of service they demand and that ultimately depends on what they are prepared to spend so at the end of the day it is costs that determine the service level.
When I was involved in the 'client side' of these contracts some worked better than others and when a contractor did not meet spec they were dealt with under the terms. It is easier to sack a contractor who fails to meet his contracted requirements than an employee these days. We kept contract terms under review as to what worked and what didnt and upgraded and improved the contracts accordingly. Often newly outsourced contracts were more problematical, with the wrinkles getting ironed out when reviewed and subsequently offered for tender.
As for the employees it does not matter who pays their wages though different firms may have different methods to achieve the required standards so the employees, when a contract changes, will have to adapt. Needless to say that when a contract changes hands you more often than not find existing employees taken on by the new contractor.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
Unfortunately Barry it is this contractual approach to servicing the public that has led to a decline. There are things that are impossible to put into contracts that actually make the difference between a good job and a bad one, pride being a good example.
If it were really true that provisions of services were just down to good contracts, contract penalties and contract supervision, then there is nothing stopping us contracting out border control? Or how about national defence? After all capitalists are quite happy to place a price on my recreational facilities and even my health! So why not my liberties and freedom?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
DT1, why would someone working for a council feel any more (or less) pride in what they do than if they work for a private company?
To suggest that people working and producing the wealth of this country for private forms do not take pride in what they do is ridiculous.
This is a nonsense argument.
Aspects of our national defence are outsourced. Private bodyguards and security firms are used, private companies develop new fighters for the air force, build ships for the navy and make tanks (all based on contracts). What else after all are ghurkas, a form of outsourcing some of our army manpower and what a great and valued success they are.
Not nonsense, people sense. Some things are outside and beyond contracts and logic. Some things work that way and some don't. It isn't rocket science............
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Having never worked in the public sector (not since the age of 16 anyway) I see a different perspective from those who do that is accentuated by my 'outside' activities where I 'look in' at the public sector.
Some public sector workers seem to develop a certain type of smugness and distain for the private sector that is very misplaced. This leads to the attitudes that seem to be expressed here by which it is assumed that pride in work can only occur if being paid by the taxpayer. This is simply wrong.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
As still own property in Dover I feel I can voice my opinion on the state of Pencester Gdns.
Firstly the Council have tried to improve them by building a super kids play area and skateboard and bike area.However bushes,hedges and the flowers have all but disappeared.Other than the presence of the Dour struggling to trickle through its path to the sea the rest of the area looks pretty shabby.I stopped taking Natascha there as she felt threatened by the drunks,the unleashed dogs and feral kids whose language can only be described as ripe and vulgar.
Outsourcing is done for one reason and one reason only and that is to provide a reduced service at a lower cost to the taxpayer.The end result is normally that the labour hired is from the lower end of the skilled ladder and therefore cheaper to hire.Resulting in poorer care.
In Jersey the Parishes are required by law to maintain their public areas to a high standard.They are also required to cut the hedgerows on a regular basis failure to do so results in fines which are levied every day the hedge remains uncut or the Parish Green is uncut. So this morning whilst driving Marites to work at 6.30am I noticed the hedges being cut quickly follwed by 2 guys on foot sweeping and collecting the cuttings.2 large roundabouts were being cut and replanted by gangs of workman.A great site and a lovely smell on a summers morning.
Get rid of the drunks and the uncontrollable dogs replant the flower beds allow an ice cream salesman and or a crepe maker to set up site in summer allowing residents to relax in the Park.Make it more welcoming and hire a high Viz Park Keeper whose job would be to maintain the grounds and report any unruly behaviour.Wouldn't it be nice to reclaim this little bit of Dover back for Dovorians.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
MAREK
Nice gto hear from you again, and cannot disagree with any part of your posting, and I dio feel the time is ripe for some people power.
RECLAIMING OUR PARK
great slogan
lets get at it
I have to say I think BarryW is inaccurate in what he says: I don't think it is taxpayer funding that creates motivation for people - quite the reverse actually! I think it is that Team feeling, a sense of belonging and responsibility, and a sense of identity. That is often overlooked in the out-sourcing stampede. it can happen, but needs to be thought through properly and managed effectively. It happens naturally in well run and carefully managed private organisations, and ditto P&V sector, but it needs to be planned and nurtured. it is worth the effort as it promotes a better service, happier staff and easier contracts!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
As someone responsible for a lot of contracting out of services over a 5 year period I totally refute Marek's idea of what CO is all about. In fact it is about delivering a specified level of service that can be higher than previously, delivered cost effectively.
When preparing Dover Sports centre for the initial contracting out bid DDC spent a fair bit of capital bringing the building up to scratch and then within the contract asked for the bidders to include additional capital investment to improve facilities as part of the bid. If my memory serves my right the winning bidder spent capital on the bar and refreshment area. A considerable amount of money was saved by the successful bid with improved facilities. The staff were mostly re-employed and there was still a team feeling, something created by good management practises rather than any 'public sector' bull.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
Barryw
you obviously havnt visited the sports centre recently
i do every friday
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Keith, what may have happened since with subsequent contracts is a different matter. I can only answer to 1995 (1994 really when we lost power after a by-election)
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
Well its far from perfect now, and that could be a very long posting on its own
but it shows how it aint working
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
The building is old now and we really do need a new centre.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
Bern, I agree that it is not necessarily about working for the taxpayer, but a sense of identity and belonging. It is the lack of trust, responsibilities and investment in people that outsourcing forgets. As Barry says 'It is easier to sack a contractor who fails to meet his contracted requirements than an employee these days' and it is this abuse that filters down to the workers, that subsequently don't care for the work they do. The likes of Sir Titus Salt and the Lever brothers realised the power of looking after their employees and proved it is actually more in their interests as a private employer. However when fulfilling a contract AND trying to make a profit this investment is not made financially or emotionally.
Having worked in the private sector and the public sector I feel that it is a sense of purpose and recognition for my work that is important, when your employer is taxpayer (and not someone with more money than they need), I think there is even more obligation to do a good job. And who is this Public Sector Bull?
Barry your example of the Ghurkhas as outsourced manpower is priceless. Just exposing the contractor mentality: 'Get them to do the work, cheaper cost, less benefits' Why support the Ghurkhas and not the employees of our port?
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
DT1
NEED i say any more great posting
