howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
leaving aside the issue of the currency being a political issue, our financial wizard ross posted on here long ago that our economic cycle is not int tune with the big european economies.
i checked this out with other people i know that deal in such matters, they confirmed this point.
brian, we are "in it", 40 billion used oncers confirms this.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
john,leaving is the cowards way out.if ukip and the new goverment wants to bottle out but thats up to them,personly i dont give a damm what they do.as you said theres no such thing as a free meal if you think what it is by being in you dont get a free meal when your in either.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Brian please tells us "That geting out of the EU and standing on our own two feet, Just like the UK done for 100s of years is the cowards way out, again what do you mean by that saying.The UK might be many things but being a coward is not one of them.I think you will get alot of posts back on that one.
Brian, Barry correctly talks of not wanting "to join the EU Soviet" and you have queried as to what Russia has to do with the EU?
As an expert europhile I`m surprised that you have to ask this question, or are you telling us that you are in fact aware that the EU is set-up and run on parallel lines based on the old Soviet Union system.
Although as a socialist you may of course think this is a superb idea comrade!
Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
Brian
Whatever else may be true, I'm most certainly not sitting on any fences! I would have thought it fairly clear that the EU is something I am 100% opposed to. Whilst I accept Barry has valid points about concerns of withdrawing from the EU as far as economics is concerned, my major concern is that the EU look down on this island with nothing short of contempt, and that is what really rankles. What fuels that further is when Brits won't stand up with pride in their own country - you can still be pro Europe without running old Blighty down, as you seem to take every opportunity to.
Withdrawal from EU cowardly, eh? How can you possibly believe that.......? Whatever else, withdrawal from the EU would be one of the bravest decisions any Government could ever take. Great Britain would have stand up for itself in a way that just doesn't happen any more - no ready made EU trade market, no easy supply of cheap labour; goodness, businesses might actually have to fight for custom against subsidised competition - but what that would bring with it is a sense of pride in our once-great nation again. That's what backbone is, scrapping for what is best for the country and not feeding off what others think is best for us.
Have pride in your own heritage.
True friends stab you in the front.
No, no ,no. What backbone is, is accepting the nation made a democratic decision and getting stuck into making it work the best for us. Running away and trumpeting chauvenistic slogans is no good. If we left the EU thousands will lose their jobs, trade will collapse at the very time when we need to be expanding. Important doors will close for good, our international reputation will be irrevocably damaged. We will become the country known to all the one who breaks treaties and therefore not to be trusted. What price the vote and word of the UK if we renege on our democrastically accepted obligations to the EU. Does this count for nothing within UKIP? Obviously not.
I am pro-EU and passionately nationalistic too. They are not mutually exclusve as UKIP would have us believe.
UKIP is advocating the policies of tomfoolery based on jingoism with a bit of flag waving added as an extra diversionary tactic to ensure the voting punter is fully unaware of the disasterous decision they are being coerced into making.
And besides, is UKIP advocating we have a referendum every few years because there is a new generation of voters? On that basis we should be renogiating the WWII surrender terms with Germany, Japan and Italy as there is a new generation running those places now. What tosh, I've never heard the like.
Get stuck in big-time and make the EU work for US, that's the best thing UKIP could do if they cared about this country as much as they claim.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Sid, you cannot be passionately nationalistic and pro-EU at the same time. The two are definitely mutually exclusive. Unless of course you consider your nationality to be European instead of British or English.
However much of what UKIP says and does is unhelpful to the cause of the moderate anti-Euro-federalists (i.e. the majority of the British population) as it tends to polarise the debate.
And part of 'backbone' is realising that the nation has made a mistake and working to correct it.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Peter, "And part of 'backbone' is realising that the nation has made a mistake and working to correct it." Assumes the country has made a mistake, I don't think we have. We have mismanaged our membership, no question, but joining was the right thing to do.
I am certainly passionately pro-English and also believe our membership of the EU should be very good for the country. The fact we continue to doubt this is due to the incompetents we keep sending to Brussels/Strasbourg to represent us.
As I said earlier, it's about time we took our membership seriously and sent in decent politicians to do the business for us. Maybe, just maybe, if we worked the EU as well as Germany and France do we might all have a different view if it.
But let's not blame the EU for our own lack of commitment and professionalism.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
But why do we have to hand over our sovereignty to Brussels? Two of the most prosperous countries in Europe are Switzerland and Norway. Neither is an EU member yet both enjoy highly favourable trading status with EU countries. The premise that being outside the EU will damage trade is a false canard.
Hungary and Greece are bust. Portugal and Ireland will follow unless they pull out of the Euro. The single currency is a failed experiment.
And the best way to manage our membership is to pick and choose which of the rules we follow. You know, the way the French do.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
andy and co you say take in pride in being british,how can i when this country has no backbone.i am not british i am english,but calling myself english i am not being pc.so if i cant call myself english then i become european which by the way i prefer to being british.
i fully agree with bob on this one.
Just one point Sid, as we have umpteen times previously fully covered all the usual trade issues that you keep mentioning.
You say that " `backbone` is accepting the nation made a democratic decision and getting stuck into making it work the best for us." That`s fair enough, but what you fail to mention, of course, is that the so called "democratic" decision made by our people at that time was based on a huge deception and the politicians knew it.
Unfortunately, the electorate didn`t. You know all too well that we voted for a trade agreement only, NOT to join a European political union.
Am I right, or am I right?!
Peter, what have ducks got to with it?
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Just Mr Perkins trying to do his best at geting at you John,but he is only one.
I`ll have to have a word or two with him up at Crabble Vic and catch him unawares!
John you are right, of course. However, things evolve and we shouldn't just refuse to make any attempt to maximise for ourselves the benefits of that evolution.
Vic, I'm not getting at John but certainly am when it comes to the UKIP EU policy.
John, happy to see you at Crabble when I can get there.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
peter,greece was going under before the euro,as for the others im not to sure about but there economys must have been tetering on the edge before hand.i think you will find that all info about the four you mention is coming from anti eu people who blame the euro and europe for every thing.
going futher when this so called country gets its backbone back i might start supporting it.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Brian please can you tell me what work you do mate,is it helped on by being in the E.U.?
Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
"I am pro-EU and passionately nationalistic too. They are not mutually exclusve as UKIP would have us believe."
No, Sid, no. Don't start the old Tory scaremongering tactics up again.....you can be pro-EU all you like, but UKIP certainly don't believe being pro-EU means you can't be nationalistic. I'm sure there are millions of people across the continent who take pride in their country and whose ideals are such that Europe is something they can believe in, too.
What I'm on about is taking a bit of pride in our own country - did you see the masses of Spanish flags being waved as Spain won the World Cup final? I didn't see a single EU flag being waved that night, I saw hordes of Spaniards rejoicing in waving their own flag and taking a bit of pride in their own country's success......and that's what scaremongering here doesn't like, as if it's somehow wrong to fly the flag of St George and believe that the mighty and faceless EU is something we can all get behind. Crap! Your phrases such as 'jingoism', 'flag-waving' and 'tomfoolery' are a return to the insults I've had a go at you about previously and there wouldn't be any need for them if your argument wasn't fundamentally flawed because you know full well that the rise of right wing views is because so many people's views are being sidelined.
Your analogy of holding referenda every few years over the surrender terms of WW2 are just another example of the crass insults you find it necessary to dish out every so often and I'm buggered if I know why you find it so necessary to resort to such an emotive analogy as that, except that it's all part of the seemingly innate requirement for Tory politics to pour scorn on all others. "What tosh, I've never heard the like.....": at least we agree on something.
True friends stab you in the front.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Well put Andy again ,Mr Perkins give it up you will never get one over Andy the chairman of UKIP, sorry you might all ready that.
Vic, don't make this personal please.
Andy, why the attack on me as a Tory?
As for flag waving Spaniards, well of course, they were supporting Spain. There is NO EU team in the World Cup, if there were, there would be flag wavers for that too.
Getting back to the issue, I don't see how UKIP reconciles advocating getting out of the EU and being patriotic. The very policy of extraction is very likely to have a massively negative financial impact on the UK. Nothing UKIP has said so far gives me any comfort that they know what they are doing, or have any clue as to how they will protect the economy and more importantly us.
Yes I use terms like jingoism and flag waving because that is what UKIP usues to mask the total lack of understanding they have about the impact their policy will have.
I am surprised you cannot see the correlation between reneging on a treaty signed 40 years ago and potenital renegotiations of all other treaties we have been party to. I used a WWII analogy to make the point simple to understand, that is all. Clearly it dosn't matter to UKIP that we turn our back on a commitment made on behalf of our country.
It is just too easy to be populist and say the EU is bad, the EU is expensive, the EU isn't good for Britain. Nothing provided by UKIP so far, convinces me, and obviously the great swathe of British voters, that the one policy UKIP has, has been well thought through enough to warrant support.