You only have to scratch at the surface of these corporations to see the blood on the floor where they have been in operation........
These type of rapacious monolithic supermarket operations are locusts, pure and simple.
They will s**t on the poor old town's corpse and then bugger off.
Back to the drawing board, people. Please.
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
And which part of this town do you live in Andrew,you seem to have all tha answers,so just a simple question apart from being a Dover F.C.supporter what are you involved in to make our Town better?
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
I don't think that Andrew is offering any answers. He just seems to be making a fairly accepted comment about large supermarket chains. I'd still like to see a precident where a proposal like this has made things 'better'. I hope I don't have substantiate this comment by divulging what I do to make our town better. Needless to say I voted for you in Tower Hamlets and like to think that I'm not doubting your hard work when I say I think this is an awful use of the site!
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
Thanks DT1,all was after was asking Andrew where he lives,because I understand he doesn't live in Dover but attacks everything that is being suggested,frustration is understandable as I think most Councillors will tell you they are frustrated by the slowness,I also agree about the Big Supermarkets,I remember when a well known sports shop came to the Town and someone said isn't it good 3 sports shops in Dover.Well the 2 independent shops couldn't compete with the multi-chain shop.Result 2 small shops closed.
If this Big Supermarket does finally and according to Paul W atkins it is still on track,then I can see any shop that sells anything that this Shop sells going down the Swanee,yes it helps that we have shops that sell food cheap,no problem there,but if they sell say T.V.'s what chance has any other shop got.I also agree we need to bring new people to shop in the Town as the 35,000 people in and around the Town will only go so far,with an A**a in Thanet Canterbury and Folkestone it will not attract the new people this Town needs.
Then if the Jobs are not here,we will build houses for people to comute out of the Town,and so spend little here,and we may end up as bad as we are now.
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
john
that is a bit of a dover response.
in the outside world, most shops welcome outside competition.
for example, the town centre shops do not not like the idea of markets on the sea front.
the reality is that markets bring in people from outside, the shops lose some business but gain from the newcomers.
my comment is based on people that have worked in the small retail sector.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
John, it does not matter where a person lives, as such, for them to comment on and reflect the feelings of so many. As an elected representative you should welcome all comment as a way of guaging the feelings of those you stood to represent. If a plan is a bad one and people let you know you are better informed for the next round of decision making. Living and spending in the town is also doing your bit for the town.
Howard, in the outside world there are a lot of protests and objections to monolithic superstores, especially in and around the smaller towns, which even make the national press from time to time. All opinions are worth listening to, that is why I went to the Asda presentation. If they are good you can act on them, if they are bad you are better armed to argue against.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
fair enough chris.
what is your alternative for the DTIZ site?
i have not heard any ideas yet, bond city are the only developers that have offered anything.
It's a bit of a cop out, I guess, but I too oppose the embedding of a parasitical corporate food chain here! I have no better suggestions because I am not paid or elected to have those answers, but I do pay and elect people to do that for me in the expectation that they will listen to me and to others (stakeholders??) in Dover so that they can make the decision best suited to the area. If I had 3 wishes about this I would wish for a safe and pleasant environment which is in keeping with the historic nature of Dover, somewhere that does not look like every other town centre between here and Aberdeen with the same bloody shops and "statues", and local shops and produce encouraged perhaps with some craft and art activities and shops as well. The kind of thing that would encourage local endeavour without damaging local competition and would reflect Dovers history and charm. I love a fantasy (at my age that's usually as good as it gets!!)
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,018
I have once again been to Tenderten .I just love the place.Waitrose is the main food chain however there are several independant shops .Leading from Waitrose there are some lovely gift shops .Superb cafes and of course many well known clothes stores.The independant shops seems to do very well .
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,018
I have once again been to Tenderten .I just love the place.Waitrose is the main food chain however there are several independant shops .Leading from Waitrose there are some lovely gift shops .Superb cafes and of course many well known clothes stores.The independant shops seems to do very well .
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
Sue
So you went twice ???
I wish I had the answers but all I do know is that simply because Asda were the only ones to put an offer on the table doesn't necessarily mean we had to accept it..maybe we could wait until something better comes along or maybe in light of the Olympics build a world class olympic style swimming pool and sports centre attracting competitors from all over the world to various events and competitions and somewhere out of London where swimmers and other water sport athletes could train and live.A lasting legacy.No disrespect mean't but what are DDC Councillors going to tell their grand kids...''oh yes and I remember when we attracted Asda to Dover seafront..what a coup..it's a pity they were bought out by that Chinese/American company in 2013 that then decided to close it as it was not ecomically viable..yes son those were the days...''.
We have waited this long for the site to be developed maybe we should wait a bit longer until something more attractive and appealing comes along?
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
basically no-one is interested in investing in the zone.
they have all looked and decided that there is not money to be made.
i suppose we could wait another half century, after that we can then plan ahead.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
I am sure that I have mentioned before that there have in the past been offers for parts of the site, and I am sure that with the proper work in contacting potential investors such offers could be sought again. My personal dislike of such monolithic and community destructive organisations aside, I do think that there are also a lot of planning and design issues with this proposal that could do with addressing. If, as DDC's oft repeated mantra would have us all believe, a cheap supermarket is all that is on offer (and you can be sure they have stopped looking) then at the very least a design should have been sought that would be more conducive to attracting visitors into the town. The present design presents visitors with a large white slab, that you know will bear a large corporate logo, that effectively walls off the town. This plan does include a small number of smaller retail outlets to let that will be hidden away around the back. In order to salvage something of benefit to the town I would have prefered to see a more open design that could have been more attractive from the main road and shown that there was a selection of outlets available. How difficult would it have been to insist on a design that made more use of us being the gateway to Britain rather than a cold, remourseless interpretation of the White Cliffs? If we did have to wait another fifty years I for one can certainly think of some more attractive options for the site than just leaving it as it is.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
Chris
We realy must stop this, once again i'm in full agreement with you.
This looks like a well, thats the best we can do option(defeatist)and thats a shame.
From the employee point of view Chris is correct ASDA(Wallmart)has one of the worst records of the way it treats its employee's and I Don;t share the view that even if Asda does come to Dover(and that appears to be a big If)they WILL in my opinion take trade away from the few small shops trying to survive, in a climate locally where that aint easy.
I'v always\said that if thats all we are getting (Asda)then lets go for that, but there is so much potential for Dover
even Roger has commented on the way Tourism is going down the pan because of the poor organisation.
As a Dovorian I'm passionate about Dover and I believe many other posters are to, it's all wanting the best for Dover and Dover has suffered long enough, I feel so sad when I visit the town.
But I'm ever living in hope, Dover deserves better.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
Well put Chris.
The proposal just exposes the kind organisation Asda is. There is no attempt to make any physical links with the town and the 'design' looks as if it has been drawn up in isolation. No attempt to do anything other than facilitate a supermarket.
Howard mentions competition but that only really relate to businesses of similar scale. We only have to look at the effect Wetherspoons has had on central Dover pubs. The same principles apply and the overwheliming success of the 8 bells is people just go for the cheap option, they don't move on to the smaller, better, yet slightly more expensive pubs and bars.
Offering up parts of the site as part of an overall vision is far more sustainable, offering diversity and capacity for change. The word monolithic keeps appearing on this thread and this really does sum up the problem with supermarkets. The monolithic nature of objects like this offer nothing other than one use. Architecturally this is the problem we have with Burlington House, we are stuck in a dialogue with something that is embedded in the town. Once Asda is here there is no going back, no ability to adjust and reshape the urban fabric. There are masterplans produced highlighting the 'grain' of the town and yet this development ignors their existance. Are people even looking at everything or just a supermarket in isolation. Who's advising our officials.
I'm not denying the hard work of individual to develop the site and pretty much accept that Asda will happen, but I ask the question again; will someone tell me; what the problems are; how this solves them and where else has anything like this happened for the better?
Guest 648- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 258
No one mentions the housing or hotel which is going on this site??
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
That's because they're the elements people haven't got a problem with!
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
And as another point Sue, the hotel will just be replacing one that is already there. There is also a very well respected Indian restaurant but no one has spoken to them about relocating, and certainly not offered them any help or incentive to do so.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
