Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
9 January 2009
12:1512435Bern - you will have no disagreement from me about healthcare at the point of need to be free for those who need it.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
9 January 2009
20:1912454barryw where is it working under the torys,are they going to make it a private health service [phs] or they going to invest into the nhs.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
9 January 2009
20:2712458Brian - the NHS needs reform and a reform has been promised with the essential 'free at the point of need' principal being upheld as sancrosant. I suspect that there will be more patient choice with NHS patients being treated more frequently in Private hospitals without artificial division between private and publics healthcare sectors, as it works well in other parts of Europe. This will encourage a new breed of private hospital to be developed to feed the NHS market. I believe it is Sweden where this has worked particularly well and some aspects of French healthcare are also likely to be taken on board. I am speaking from memeory as I have not done any reading on health policy for some while and may be out of date.
9 January 2009
20:5812459People don't want choice, they want local, accessible, friendly kind healthcare. I don't want to have to make a choice between different hospitals in different areas just when I feel vulnerable and scared, or just plain ill and tired. I want localnhealthcare where my family can maintain support, near to where I live, delivered by people who smile and care. It is simply not possible to aspire to make a profit from citizens ill health.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
9 January 2009
21:3612471the only thing that needs reforming is the tory party,to much deadwood.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
10 January 2009
08:3712485Brian, why do you have to spoil a good debate with purile comments like that ?
The Conservatives are committed to the Health Service, but with all the money being pumped into it and still so many things wrong with it, it shows it needs a lot of reform and change of practices - I'm not a hospital administrator, so won't poke my nose in, but there are a lot of professionals who do know how it should be run and they should be running it.
Best practice is what it's called and best practice is what we need.
Roger
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
10 January 2009
10:3212493I hope there is reform and if the Conservatives get in next time (which I suspect will be the case), I'd hope they do address the problems faced by the NHS without applying too many of their capitalist notions or backdoor privatisation (that this government is equally guilty of!) Although the bottom line here is money, required to pay wages, build hospitals etc; services such as the health care simply do not have a 'price' something Capitalist thinking overlooks. The 'value' of health and education transcend the rather crude constraints of capitalism, an idea some Conservatives will disagree with. I agree Roger, that so many things are still wrong and require reform but then the complexity of medicine and health care increases (as do so many things) exponentially, where the funding does not! It is always going to be a seemingly impossible task but must be approached with the health of everyone in the country as the primary concern, not with efficiency measured in Sterling!
Bern is so right (as I imagine she is the most informed to talk about this subject) that this is not about choice; this is about the well being of everyone, to the best level, irrespective of financial situation. This is where general Conservative thinking eludes me. I am all for people 'making their own fortune' and meritocracy, I really am, but when we live in a country where people can get better health care just because they have more cash exposes the 'you can have it if you really want/protestant work ethic' for the pile of crud that it is! These services and fundamental rights of the citizens of this great country should be egalitarian in provision and not exclusive or dictated by money.
The same can be said for education with the highest paid jobs in this country still being dominated by ex public school students. Are these people more capable or intelligent than the proletariat? Of course not, they just speak better and sort jobs out for one and other whilst looking down their noses and making vast generalisations about everyone else!(as I am to them due to the large chip on my shoulder) Health care and education are things that need to be equal to all, which is why they require a centralisation and standardisation, which unfortunately paves the way for excessive administration and sometimes mindless 'red tape' as Barry would say. It's interesting that the Conservatives look to Sweden (who admittedly do offer 'choice' as part of their approach) as this seems to what the Conservatives are doing with education as well! However the Swedes do not vote in parties based on policies of tax cuts for the high earners, or quote the 'laffer curve' to keep the rich, rich and the poor, poor! We do!
Let's look to Sweden and increase our taxes (I'm happy to pay more if we all benefit), making sure those who get better health care and education (even if this cash is from organised crime, wealth isn't a descriptor of virtue) , pay in more to help those who have not. All that extra private health money floating about would make a huge difference to the NHS and good people such as us, wouldn't have to experience a sub-standard service to those who are more 'privileged'
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
10 January 2009
13:1812501roger,just adding a bit of spice,all partys need to reform before they can reform.what with the torys with no policys of note no clear guidence of where they are going full of non starter ideas and no clear direction of what they plan to do when they are in power.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
10 January 2009
14:4212503DT1 -Sorry to see that you are hanging on to the old dogma that has so bedevilled the NHS, keeping it in a socialist timewarp of expensive inefficiency.
What matters is the following... That treatment is free at the point of delivery and of the highest quality.
What does not matter is whether that treatment is delivered by a private company or a state one.
Sweden got rid of its socialist government, DT, because of the penal high taxation.
The point of taxation should only be to raise needed revenue and not social engineering. Tax should always be kept as low as possible in order not to damage the economy and to ensure that we can spend the mopney we earn on what we ant to spend it on. I know what is best for my family and how best to spend my money, not any Government of whatever persuasion or civil servant.
10 January 2009
15:5412510Of course the provider matters!! The objectives of the provider will impact directly on the outcomes and the delivery of the service. And taxation is always going to be linked to social engineering - part of governments remit is social engineering, else why bother with tax breaks for married couples, incentives for having/not having children depending on the societal need at the time, focus on abortion/anti-abortion/gene therapy/whatever. Governments are always going to have social strategies and that is a fact we have to live with.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
11 January 2009
10:3612522Barry, I have to admire your adherence Thatcherism, continuing to worry about the price of everything and the value of nothing! The provider is key, as privatisation will only lead a defined tiered system, perpetuating the mindless class system that is still the dominating factor destroying the concept of 'choice' in this country (you can't 'have it if you really want'). We can see this within the system we already have. Just because someone can afford private health care does this mean that they are more entitled to care? (Please answer this)
Sweden the current 'home of Conservative plagiarism' hasn't formed these systems over the last year and a half, the principles behind much of what they are doing extend across differing governments and have always placed an emphasis on paying into the social structure. Looking at the UNICEF report on the well-being of children in developed countries there is almost a perfect correlation between those countries that have high provision for children (with less living in deprivation) and those with higher tax and state provision(spain being the exception). I don't think this is coincidence! As soon as our species started co-existing, social engineering or one sort or another has had to take place, history tells us this as fact. It's no good ignoring it!
I have every faith that you know what is best for your family and how best to spend your money, however I have heard this line so many times before, from others that you would claim don't.
"If I want to smoke, It's my choice, it's my only pleasure, THEY can't tell me what to spend my money on, it keeps me calm and that's better for the kids"
"I can't believe the THEY think they can fine me for not sending my son to school, I learnt nothing at school, THEY're all the same, what right have THEY to tell me I have to send little Johnny?!"
"Why is playing my music loud at 3 in the morning on a Wednesday wrong. Me and my wife have no kids, work shifts and we like to unwind with our colleagues. What right have THEY got to tell me that this is anti-social!?...anyway I don't even think it is loud, how can THEY say it is loud?"
'They' being the establishment and their social engineering of course. How can these people also know what to spend their money on and what to do Barry?
Just to note, that my Mum often responds to people when they tell her where they have been on holiday with the line "oooh, THEY say it's nice there" This 'they' could be a different from the social engineering lot....although I might be wrong!
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,018
11 January 2009
12:1912527I dont usually get invovled with the Political debate ,however some of the comments made on here are unbelievable .Comments such as Xpublic School students get better jobs because quoute "They speak Posh"" No wonder we have problems .My son was public school educated he does not speak Posh ,what he does have is a lot of common sense He can look at a situation and take a broad view .By hard work and sheer determination he is a sucess .What anoys us so Tories is the people who bleed us dry and never contribute to society .NHS my daughter as ypu all know is a Director in the NHS.Sheer hard work has got her where she is today .Travels 45 minutes to work and at her desk most days by 8.00am arriving home usually after 7.00pm .on call ssme nights and at weekends .No she does not have private health care although she could afford it .because she does not belive in it
Whilst people go on and on about them and us we will never succeed .You have all read Cllr Watkins postings sheer hard work has got him where he is today .Some of you need to think very carefully before you acuse tories as uncaring .Tell me why my daughter no children works hard should keep families who have child after child and have never worked .Dont get me wrong everyone is entitled to have children but they should not epect the state to keep them .
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
11 January 2009
12:4212528Maybe they would be unbelievable if you read or quoted them correctly Sue.
Statistically the higher paid jobs in this country are still dominated by those who have been to poublic school, that's a fact!
I certainly would not say that hard work will not get you places. What I am saying is that hard work does not always deliver. I'm questioning the protestant work ethic and Desmond Dekka more than anything else. I have what I need in my life, due to hard work, but also being born into a caring family and being encouraged, which I endevour to pass onto my children (and the inheritance of genes.) These things are cyclical and if you rattle on about social mobility you must understand the fundemental problem that stalls it. I know people that work twice as hard as me and yet have no more!
Conservative #1
"What anoys us so Tories is the people who bleed us dry and never contribute to society "
Conservative #2
"Tax should always be kept as low as possible"
hmmmm!
PS. would you delineate 'common sense' for me!
11 January 2009
13:3312530Another helpful insight into some prejudices there Sue, thank you. PS - many people work hard.
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,018
11 January 2009
15:1812536Hullo Bern ,another year and yet again you pick my posting to pieces .Maybe a bit of the green eyed monster there me thinks re NHS .Yes many people do work hard but they dont come on here bleating My eldest son flew to Norway during Christmas week off??Left home 4.00am arrived back 1.00am following morning That is hard work but his company are doing very well and DTI the .public school educated son works along side him common sense is showing in profits .
Back to the NHS My elderly Aunt coming 92 fell twice before Christmas once down the stairs Her Husband 93,called a taxi made their way to the nurse The hospital Broomfield is many miles away they
did not dial 999 and clog the emergency system neither did they travel miles to A'E what older people have always done got on with it .No benefits to be seen .Worked all their lives .So dont bleat to me about prejudices.
11 January 2009
15:2312539I do not bleat. Bah!!
11 January 2009
15:3112540Sue - you are right, it is a new year - I suspect we share some values, more than we realise. If you have family working in the NHS I am sure we have some shared ideals. Let's have a truce - just, please, don't make it too easy for me to jump!!!!!!!!
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
11 January 2009
17:3912547Common sense is now measured in Pounds Sterling, that's a new one on me! So Drug dealers have loads of common sense then!?
That really is wonderful!
11 January 2009
18:1412549Remember how many public school graduates also routinely mis-use drugs and sell them to mates..........drug dealers but with added class????
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
11 January 2009
18:2012551and.
