#21
Vic Matcham,
You have asked whether I have been in the services before??
The answer is Yes I have,for nine years so take a note of that fact. It will save you the embarrassment of asking again!!
#22
Quizzler,
Like you I can only comment on what I hear on the news media and read in the press.
I can accept that even the "TIMES" is not beyond a few porky pies now and then, but to lie on there headlines I think not, plus photographs or were they faked as well?? I dont think so.
I think you will regret your statement mentoring the Afghan is the way forward.
I wonder if those two squaddies killed in the last 24 hours would agree??
#23
Barry W,
I thank you for your armchair assessment of my political and military knowledge. I grant you I am wrong sometimes but not always surely??
I do not know what your knowledge is in these fields.
It is a basic precept in military conflict that one does not build schools in the middle of a battle zone, and Afghanistan is a battle zone whether you agree or not, but there again I may have to bow to your greater knowledge.
I have no objection of helping the Afghan in principal provided we do the job in the correct order.
It is not only our troops who are being killed and maimed it is also the local population. I wonder what there re-action is when there child gets their legs blown off by a taliban IED?? That is alright then, my child lost his legs for a noble cause, namely to drive the infidel out of our country.
As I type another british life has been lost for what, I ask you??
#24
Jimmy, I am pointless and withdraw.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
#25
Barry, may-be your calculation of facts in Afghanistan is narrow-minded. In the days when the pro-Soviet Afghan government, employing tens of thousands of local Afghan soldiers and at least as many Soviet soldiers to defend their cause of modernisation, tried to institute schools and nurseries for Afghan children, and taught Afghan girls not to wear old-fashioned cloaks and head-covers in the class-room, the Mujahadin went around killing thousands, yes thousands, of these Afghan teachers! The Mujahedin eventually took over from the pro-Soviet government, but behaved so badly with never-ending fighting among each other, that the Taliban was formed and kicked the Mujahedin out.
I don't believe the Taliban are as savage as the Mujahedin to their own people, but they evidently don't like foreign soldiers there telling Afghan women and children what to do. And I don't like British ministers telling the British public to sacrifice the lives of our own soldiers, or send them to be maimed.
Bern: a war is often harder to stop than it is to start. Afghanistan is not Britain, and the blunders that Britain and the USA and some other countries are experiencing in that country are exactly the same as those encountered by the Soviet army and their Afghan allies of then.
Guest 672- Registered: 3 Jun 2008
- Posts: 2,119
#26
I withdrew a while back Bern. It seems this thread has some very strong feelings for and against.
I don't think it matters if you served in the forces or not, each and every person has a different point of view and the decisions lay at a far higher level than us whatever we say.
Apart from the few obvious on here that do post and are ex forces, I know a few that do read the forum and served or are serving at a far higher level than I did. They have views too but would not go on a forum of any description to give their opinion, but I do know how they feel and where their hearts lay.
End of postings for me on this thread.
grass grows by the inches but dies by the feet.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
#27
And Ido not believe that their hearts lie in Afghanistan!
#28
Alexander D - to my surprise I am agreeing with you in large part! I remember the West being bitter about Russias involvement in Afghanistan, but we did not give the Russians credit for their insights given their own problems in that area. Yes, wars are hard to stop, but sometimes their start is inevitable given the circumstances. There have been terrible atrocities there - I know a guy whose story would shred your heart, involving Mujahaden and his family. And that is partly why we are there now. It has to be, our armed forces know it amd we should support them with all our hearts.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
#29
I have never served in the armed forces so I will put that on table before I start but I had a brother who did serve in NI doing 4 tours from 1968 onwards which led to his early demise aged 42 yrs. I'm not sure if anyone else on the forum has shot a gun in anger/war but he did so by proxy I feel able to express my opinion.
Secondly a very good friend,an Ambassador in the Dip Service who gave up his post to head the Overseas Development Agency (ODA) in Iraq and then in Afghanistan in the winter years of his career not for the money or because he was required to do so but because he wanted to make a difference to the brutal regimes.
We pass this way but once and therefore some of us feel that in some small way we should or can make a contribution.
AlexD & JimmyL
Whether we should be in the Middle East is is neither here nor there ,we are and we have to accept the decision of our democratically elected rulers whether we like it or not. We are not the Ruskies nor do we employ their tactics so it's pointless referring to them as some sort of benchmark.
The three main problems,as I see it , in Afghanistan are
(1) terrorism-its camps ,support and arms trade through Kashmir
(2) Its heroin production - which not only supplies it with vasts sums of money to support its arms trade but is purposely used to destroy the youth of our and other countries and finally
(3) the religious and democratic suppression of its people - especially women.
In my limited opinion that seems and appears worth fighting for, I may be mistaken but I fully support our troops and although I sincerely mourn the loss of life but if put into the melting pot of wars then what about the millions that died in the trenches of WW1 and the millions of civilians killed in WW2 not to mention the troops who's remains lie scattered around the globe,Korea,Vietnam, Falklands et al
The only way to 'win' the war, if that's the correct terminology,is to win the hearts and minds of the Afghans and give them what we take for granted which is Freedom not only of speech but in Democracy and the right of all adults male and female to vote and finally a choice of religion or not they wish to chose to follow.
Bob was right the war will be lost in the bars and at dinner parties and by power hungry politicians clamouring for your vote at the next election paying lip service to your calls of 'bring our boys back home' in order to gain your vote. I call that retreating and giving up before the task is completed.Others may differ.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
#30
it is only western arrogance that believes that they should adopt our values. Or civilisation???????????????????????
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
#31
And maybe eastern arrogance (and ignorance), that we should adopt their religion?
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
#32
Bob
I wouldn't wish our western values on any other nation..but basic freedom to choose ,as you have done in life,to your education, your career, not determined by your gender, to be able to express your opinion right or wrong or contrary to that of the govt and vote accordingly and your decision to reject or accept religion should be afforded to all men and women. Not arrogance but giving others the rights we enjoy.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
#33
MArek -
#34
Marek.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
#35
Marek.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
#36
To follow Bobs signature
Dream big and dare to fail.
Norman D. Vaughan
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
#37
Marek, I`d have at least thought you`d be cheering for scoring a hatrick!
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
#38
Colin
Yes just like Manchester United beating Celtic 3-1 in Toronto last night with a crowd of 39,193 in attendance
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
#39
Norman Vaughn? Roses grow on you!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#40
surely each sovereign nation has a right to run their internal affairs their own way.
did we not lose so many of our young(and sometimes not so young) between 1939 and 1945 to preserve our values and our way of life?
why is so hard to understand that other nations that we invade feel the same way?
