14 August 2009
20:5027239Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,698
14 August 2009
22:4227245I agree with the Australian quote in so far as incomers should abide by the laws of the country the move to, where I find it uncomfortable is where this sort of sentiment is used to dictate how people should dress or behave and also used to justify assumptions about people that are unreasonable/be deemed to be offensive if they were made the other way round etc.
What bothers me about this debate about clothing is we are damning women/people who wish to dress modestly, when our cultural seems more than happy to sexualise children, particularly young girls in a way that is frankly truly unsavoury and unhealthy.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 683- Registered: 11 Feb 2009
- Posts: 1,052
15 August 2009
00:2127249"When in Rome" etc is all very well it would seem as long as that fits the white Anglo Saxon model. I refer to my earlier posting about the Aborigines and would widen this to the First Nations of the USA and Canada as well as numerous other indigenous groups around the world where European settlers continue to disregard their heritage. I would even refer to those more recent enclaves in France and Spain where ex-pats play cricket, produce their newspapers in English and eat in restaurants serving British food and British beer.
Or should one assume that the requirements for European settlers are different to those of other ethnic/cultural backgrounds.
Mark
15 August 2009
06:5927251Ross, I couldn't agree more. I think I object to the imposition of false modesty on women of other cultures, the implication of their impurity being at the heart of the dogma, as much as the blatant exploitation of kiddie sexuality in Western culture. In both examples women and girls are being used and exploited, objectified and reduced.
Mark - those examples are exceptionally valid and ring true. I think, though, that along with the irish question and slavery we need to move on and away: we can atone as much as we like for others past misdeeds, but what counts is how we behave now, right at this moment. That implies that we can learn from the past as well as regret it.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
15 August 2009
07:3927257Learning from the past is all well and good and should be followed, but I don't agree that we who are living now, should apologise for our ancesters "sins".
We don't owe any one an apology for what happened two hundred or so years ago; learn not to do it again or anymore is fine.
Britain has done an awful lot of good over the last two to three hundred years around the World, but has also brought (and caused) an awful lot of problems too and in many cases, quite wicked things have happened with our official blessing.
But we can't keep saying sorry.
Roger
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
15 August 2009
09:0527262we never expect apologies from the french over the norman invasion or the danish government over the vikings.
history is just that, history.
15 August 2009
09:0627263Indeed - and it isn't just the UK who have committed misdeeds, so where does it stop? Should every nation that has been naughty sit on the naughty step for a while? Pah!! Meaningless apologies are worth nothing - it is what we do now that counts. We need to hold our heads up, acknowledge the past but leave it where it is, learn and move on.
Guest 683- Registered: 11 Feb 2009
- Posts: 1,052
15 August 2009
10:3327270Who's talking about apologies? Several of you mention learning fom the past but a look at the ex pat communities in Spain, France and the Middle East would suggest that this is not happening. I know several people who are currently working in Islamic states in the Middle East but are not considering conversion and are able to carry on their western lifestyle in their compounds or through the hotel systems there.
I just worry that the call for integration applies to other ethnic groups/cultures above our own but I am sure someone will be able to give me examples to ease my concern.
Mark
15 August 2009
11:4727273Just because some western people don't adapt doesn't make it ok. How arrogant is that? Westerners are abusing their host culture, so let everyone do the same here? When in Rome applies across the board, but let's not get carried away: we don't have to "convert" or lose our faiths or eat humble pie, and nor do the people living here who have come from elsewhere - When in Rome simply means respecting the host culture and not expecting it to bend to your own. For years I lived in London with such a lovely vibrant multi-cultural social life, and it rarely went bad. Because, mainly, people who arrived here respected that fact: they had come in from elsewhere. No-one expected them (us - I was an irish catholic) to become CofE or Jewish, or Druid or anything else, but we were expected to respect the host culture even while retaining our own. It worked because we all just got on with it. Now, if that doesn't happen elsewhere, that doesn't make it ok to tolerate bad behaviour here.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,698
15 August 2009
11:5027274Mark
I absolutely agree, when I lived in Brussels I made a deliberate point of avoiding the ex-pat communites (British, Irish & American) and went out of my way to make friends amongst the locals; as I wanted to enjoy and understand the local way of life. However it is not just anglo-saxons that do this, it is a feature of most cultures/nationalities particularly where there is a language difference and is fully understandable as we all want to feel comfortable and that comfort is drawn from commonality. For example just look at the Turkish communities in say Green Lanes in London, or Schaerbeek in Brussels, or the Senegalese and Congolese enclaves in St Giles in Brussels, the Caribbean communities in South & West London etc. etc.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
17 August 2009
08:4627408I too prefer to mix with the French rather than the ex-pats when we stay in France. I actually dont care for the attitude of so many of the ex-pats I meet there.
That said there are different issues mixed up here.
Many of the ex-pats in places like Saudi who dont 'mix' with the locals are not true ex-pats in the sense of moving out there lock stock and barrel to live. Mostly they go to work, earn some dosh to then move back here. You cannot blame them for living in their compounds and mixing with their like. They are not trying to change the local culture to accomodate them 'out in the country' as a whole. That is very different to those people who move here to live, work and retire, from places like Pakistan, who seem to expect us to bend over backwards and modify our ways and beliefs for them. Perhaps though its driven not so much by them but guilt ridden wooly headed white middle class PC nutters (to use the politest term I can come up with for them).
As for history, well the fault there is to look back on past events and to try to transfer modern 21st century values, knowledge and sensibilities to those times or visa versa. What happened, happened, for good or bad.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
17 August 2009
09:292741124 years ago,for my sins, I was required to live and work in Dhaka,Bangladesh. I worked at the High Commission and decided that as Christmas was approaching that I would throw a party.Not only did I invite everyone employed at the HC but because my house was in Gulshan ,the Mayfair of Dhaka, I also invited my next door neighbours who varied in occupation from T.V news reader to Japannese Bank director and a local Bengali millionaire. I hired 8 chefs and 42 staff who helped to prepare and serve the food and drinks. A local Bengali D J operated the disco and the night in my opinion was a roaring success. However the following day I was summoned to the Head of Chancery office where he started to give me a dressing down for inviting "locals" to an office party. I politely informed him that the Christmas bash was solely funded by myself and that it was my decision as to whom was invited. I then pointed out to him the advantanges of sex and travel! needless to say my career was cut short. But this illustrates the type of colonial attitude that still prevails overseas. Until we are prepared to integrate and adopt other nations culture we will always be stuck in the Victorian era.
People choosing the UK as their refuge or new home should do likewise adopt and abide by our rules and regulations without losing their own sense of identity.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
17 August 2009
18:0627439Well said Marek - to your (ex-) boss too.
Roger
