Unregistered User
11 November 2008
08:508966Asda was not a poor choice . At the time it was the ONLY CHOICE. No other food retail group were interested. The town centre will not regenerate without a major food retailer to draw people back to the centre. No leisure, cinema group were interested. New cinema complex at Westwood is struggling according to local information.
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,018
11 November 2008
10:028972Thats how it was.Cllr Watkins will always tell you the truth not always what one would like to be told .He doesnt hold the respect of many with out reason.He leads a team of people some with very strong personalities but at the end of the day it works .
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
11 November 2008
13:578978Somerfields, Nettos, Aldi's, soon Morrisons, Why does it need to be another food retail group? Are you saying that no other options were ever explored or considered other than giving the site over to a large supermarket chain with a very poor staff record and a policy of undercutting all competition?
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 670- Registered: 23 Apr 2008
- Posts: 573
11 November 2008
14:218981Could you please tell me Sue where it has worked?
Aren't these the strong personalities that have almost certainly lost the hard-pushed Council Tax payer 1 million quid?
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
11 November 2008
14:268982I have a number of concerns with ASDA namely
It will be an eyesore on the main route to and from the port.What a fantastic advertisement for Dover.
How much extra traffic will this put on the dual carriage way.
It won't attract shoppers from elsewhere as they will be too afraid of becoming stuck in Operation Stack.
What will happen to the site once it has been abandoned by ASDA as adandon it surely will be in a decade or so as shopping habits change.
There are a lots of other moral issues but these are just a few practical ones that spring to mind.
Is this really the very very best we could come up with,another supermarket?The mind boggles.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
11 November 2008
16:358985Marek
That was very uncharacteristically negative of you.
Why do you think it will be an eyesore ? it will be of a very good design - not all ASDA supermarkets are the same.
As explained by Paul Watkins, the new berths on the Western Docks, will be for traffic coming down the M20/A20, going with whoever is put at the Western Docks (eg. Seafrance. LD Ferries or whoever).
The traffic coming down the M2/A2 will be for the Eastern Docks and the Ferry companies operating from there.
Don't forget, we're not talking about today, tomorrow or even next week, but sometime down the line, but the Western Docks development will be here within five years, maybe less.
This will mean of course that operation stack will be much less of a burden than it is now and also don't forget that when operation stack is invoked, there is no lorry problem in Dover.
Your negativity does you no credit Marek - ASDA won't be abandoning Dover - we must make sure that Dover does NOT abandon ASDA, then it might want to go.
Shopping habits may change, but supermarkets are here to stay.
What are your moral issues ? and yes it is the best that the developers could come up with.
No one else wanted to come here - why do you think that is ? with 14/15 million passengers passing through Dover and no one wanted to come here - maybe they'd heard about the negativity of so many people here.
Roger
Sid Pollitt
11 November 2008
16:498987What worries me Roger is that the DTIZ plans were first put forward in around 1996 and when you guys took over the council in 2003 the developer was in place and nothing seems to have happened. Dover is now having to compete with Westwood Cross that I dont believe was even thought of back then. How many more months before work starts to put something on the site?
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
11 November 2008
16:518988Roger
Its not negativity but realism.
Instead of yet another supermarket why not an inner town farm with animals,shops and restaurants.Old and young from Dover and the outlying areas could visit for the day.Less abled bodied could experience farm animals close up.Volunteers could be recruited from the schools or the offenders programme.It would also attract tourists.
If thats not acceptable why not an olympic size swimming pool,where young olympic 2012 hopefuls could come to train and compete this coupled with an almighty slide for the young and not so young,a kiddies paddling pool,an indoor 10 lane bowling alley,an intimate theatre or cinema with bar and food outlets.I am sure some funding could be found from the govt and lottery fund.
A reconstructed fully working old Victorian town with cobbled streets stuffed full with antique shops,tea and coffee houses,old Victorian pubs,gift shops,fishmongers ,bakers,confectioners etc maybe even a small old time music hall attracting visitors from all over the UK and Continent.
Yes its ambitious but any of these would be something that Dover could be proud of...instead of yet another supermarket.
On moral grounds ASDA have an appalling record in their treatment of staff with regard pay and working conditions.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
11 November 2008
17:188991the only place they could put a town farm is pencester gardens,that way it will keep the drunks out,this in keeping the play park/skate park.
11 November 2008
17:218992Good ideas, Marek.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
11 November 2008
19:038994I repeat, great ideas Marek, and Brian I thought we already had animals in Pencester Gardens.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
11 November 2008
19:59899511 November 2008
20:008996PS - please can someone retrieve Sue from Cllr Watkins passages?
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
11 November 2008
20:05899811 November 2008
20:068999Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
11 November 2008
20:179002yes there is chris free range of the worst kind.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
11 November 2008
20:279003paul watkins,is there a time scale from demolition to rebuild.
Unregistered User
11 November 2008
20:299004Marek why would those from outlying areas want to see farm animals in a town centre when they live surrounded by the real thing? These postings get more surreal.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
11 November 2008
21:569010getting back to what the fuhrer said earlier, it is a well known fact that a supermarket must anchor any development.
just take a butchers at the ASDA development in folkestone, there are small businesses springing up all around it.
the area has a buzz to it, two major coffee chains are doing great business, forgotten most of the others but "subway" has opened a branch, specsavers is there, a small independent jewellers, those people who mend shoes and cut keys.
this is above and beyond the shops that opened at the same time as ASDA.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
11 November 2008
22:109011As I always say it's great that someone is prepared to put their head above the parapet and well done to Paul Watkins for doing this. You have such a demanding task and it means so much to hear your responses. Howard, supermarkets do offer the anchor for many developments, but this development almost functions in isolation. If you think what has happened in Folkestone is good town planning. Funny that the shops mentioned literaly living in the shadow of the all great Asda, are the few things you can't buy in the folkestone Asda. According to my sister who lives in Folkestone (and likes supermarkets) there are also casualties.
Marek although all your ideas all have their charm, I don't think they really offer a development plan that is any more sustainable than the Asda option. We do not live in inner London and the prospect of creating a farm in a town centre surrounded by rural areas borders on the ironic. The leisure facilities are all wonderful but backing would be impossible to find, as these things are always strategically placed, and in our current age this isn't beside the sea with poor infrastructure. These things would only happen if necessary elements and potential preceded them. As for the Victorian town...why? Why not Georgian or even Roman. I love Victorian street scene, but if I want twee recreations I'll go to DisneyLand or Prince Charles' "attempt" at town planning, Poundsbury. But actually if people want to visit that, why not go to the real thing?
Roger, it is not a good design. I'm sure this is what the developers are saying to the council and letting them 'tweak' elements to make them feel a sense of control and OK, it is marginally more sensitive than the usual lumps of 'Kingspan' clad sheds thrown up by Asda. Sir Lord Sainsbury is about the only person concerned with the good design of supermarkets (Greenwich Sainsbury is wonderful). Wal-Mart is not, they just like things cheap...and preferably made by exploited children in developing countries.
Supermarkets are sustainable...self sustainable and that is the point. They don't rely on anything other than the road going to them and from them, although I'm sure they would get rid of the latter given half a chance. The road in this case is questionable. I fully appreciate the offer we have is the only one on the table but find this offer merely a catalyst for negativity. Quality urban space and architecture is inspirational and used as a tool to sell towns and cities. Supermarkets are not as they encompass so much that is negative modernity and work in isolation for their own interests (how will they contribute to 'help' local trade?). Mixed use developments return lower but consistent returns to developers and seem to be the basis for so many new projects here and on the continent at such and achievable level. They build on infrastructure and attempt to build social capacity; no one can deny the need for housing in this country (more so than anywhere in europe). To use this as in combination with other built elements, providing routes through the site, new connections and revived facilities makes so much sense and works so beautifully elsewhere.
I also understand that so many do so much for Dover and are fighting a tough battle, especially when being faced with the negativity of those they are trying to best represent. Perhaps the route of negativity is partially to do with the fact the belief of people in this town, that believe it is worthy of so much are being offered such mediocrity. We rightly think we are worthy of to be the jewel of Kent, bur are being given something from Elizabeth Duke.
