#61
Without wanting to descend into a party political rant (not needed and rather passe), it is important to view this historically, as Ross says:Thatcher laid the foundation stones and Blair did the rest, and set up UK PLC and Brown to fail. GB has an almost impossible task, to scoop back at least an appearance of socialist philosophy amidst the obvious me-culture and rock-bottom morality of his current shower.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#62
I'v also posted many times on this subject.
I'm proud to be a left wing socialist,
and why shouldn't I be.
TB And the labour party decided that the only way to get elected to Govt was to go for the middle England vote, what he didn't care about was his solid membership of left wing members.
These left wing people were the foot sloggers on the doorstep and he lost many of them when he decided to go the way he did.
Of course the Labour party at the time had a dilema, stay with its left wing policies and remain in opposion or go for middle England and get the unwanted conservatives out of office.
T B Decided middle England was the way
Was that a good Idea or not? well It served its purpose for 12 years or so
keeping out the conservatives #and so many working class and middle class persons benefited from the Labour Govt.
Also TB had visions and was a good leader, although just like Maggie before him, he lost his way and stopped listening to the people(or had bad advisors)
GB im sure is no left wing leader, and realy does have pride and passion for the Labour Govt and the country.
Its been an uphill struggle for him, many things being out of his control.
The present Labour Govt needs to now shape up and take on the conservativesd
and show the tories lack of costed policies
He has time,
Come on GB im with you
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#63
interesting post from keith there, mr blair did indeed target a wider fanbase.
the alternative was to leave a jaded and discredited government in charge.
the population took to it well before mr major called an election.
the problem is always the same, too much success goes to people heads and they forget the people that put them there and act in an autocratic manner.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#64
The only people to have benefitted from 12 years of labour are those on benefit, not those working.
Everything is worse under Labour.
Roger
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#65
There is a lot to catch up on from the weekend.
Those of you on the left clearly have no real understanding of the Conservative Party and that is very much a weakness. It is this lack of understanding that leads to ill-conceived class war tactics that have so clearly failed.
PaulB, Ross etc. Dogma has never been central to the Conservative Party hence its success over 200 years because if weighed down by dogma it could not have survived changing times. Take the Tories of Pitt (perhaps better described at 'Pittite Whigs' as Pitt never called himself a Tory), the Peel Tories, the Disreali Conservatives, Heath's Conservative & Unionist Party and the the Thatcher Conservatives. There a a common set of values and traditions that link them but the Party was always able to adapt to changing times.
The key point about the Conservatives is a belief in the power of the individual. This comes accross as personal responsibility, personal freedom, share ownership, enterprise, home ownership and generally smaller Government. Indeed the debate in the Conservatives is about just how small should Government be and DC has revealed a lot of the localism agenda that is a strong thread informing policy. That localism is not one based on local government so much as individual people. What stops this a being dogma is an acceptance that small Government does not mean no Government and there is a strong belief in our nation, in Defence and law and order that underpins it.
To the Labour Party the old left wing call of 'power to the people' was about collective power and it is that belief in collectivism that remains the hindering dogma of Labour. It is this that leads them to justify high taxation and nanny state interfering in our lives, 'we the Government know best and here are your targets'. It hinders them because Governments, politicians, do not know best and do not always have the best of motives. It also is a problem for them when dealing with a crisis and when leadership is required. We can see that in Brown's response to expenses in setting up committee after committee compared to Cameron who made a decision and then set up a panel to implement it. We have seen locally how that hinders good administration when they were in control of DDC.
To the Conservatives 'power to the people' is a different thing. For instance real public ownership is where people buy shares in businesses directly or through collective investment schemes. Real public ownership is people being encouraged to buy their own homes. Under new policies its about locally directly elected police chiefs to determine operational and prosecution policy. Its about trusting and freeing headmasters and doctors from Government targets and rafts of policy documents to apply their own expertise and judgement to run their schools and hospitals. Its about leaving people free to run their own lives and businesses without interference. Its about getting Government off our backs, cutting back its role, lower taxation for all remains an asperation once UK PLC can afford it.
Guest 652- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 595
#66
Thanks Roger,
I'm on benefit in a way, and yes I am better off, but I worked to get that benefit, I'm dreading the tax credits, fuel entitlements etc being cut back ,or even out, as a certain party threatened to do, although they said they would increase the pension, but we would still be worse of
Sheila
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#67
I'm not talking about old-age pensioners and their allowances Sheila, or young families come to that; I'm really talking about people who are not working, but could be - scivers if you like; people who work hard at not working and fiddle the system so as to make it a way of life.
Roger
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#68
roger
the people you refer to do not vote in the main.
the working public have 3 times endorsed a labour government.
they would not do this if they were worse off.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#69
We are all a lot worse off as a result of this Government. The recession and the levels of debt that we and our children will have to repay are crippling. Taxes are way up as well, our wealth as measured by our homes, pensions and investments are down typically 20% or more from the peak.
Until recently we have been living with a 'fantasy island' economy that gave the illusion of our being better off but that was built on a bubble of debt and that bubble has burst.
We are now having face the reality of this Governments economic incompetence over 12 years.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#70
We can see as sheila says on ROGER's posting, WATCH OUT IF YOUR ON ANY KIND ON BENEFITS the tories are out to get you.
If that aint enough of a wake up call then wot is !!!!!
We did see maggies failings many of which Barryw mentioned like buying your own home which in itself is a grand idea but ended with many being re possessed so was it that good?
No conservative party has ever believed in localism, on local councis when they were in govt last when they could have done so, they didn';t they cut dosh to local councils year on year.
So we a lot to look forward to
cuts in credit taxs
cuts in pensioin taxs
no winter fuel allowances
the list goes on
so do we realy want a tory govt?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#71
I suggest you leave promoting the Conservative manifesto to Conservatives Keith instead of making up your own fictional version.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#72
Thats the thing barryw
no one knows what the tories stand for, they make promises to do everything, but don't cost out anything.
will be interesting to see what they realy are all about.
One day they will let us know
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#73
There is plenty of policy information if you care to look.
http://www.conservatives.com/Policy.aspx
Beyond that, as usual, you will need to await the manifesto.
Guest 673- Registered: 16 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,388
#74
Sorry to see that Sheila is worried about a certain party cutting back or eliminating fuel entitlements and Keith is looking forward to no winter fuel allowance if the Conservatives have their evil way and let all the old folk freeze, as I am sure they will.
I have just turned sixty and received my first winter fuel allowance. I feel a complete fraud as I am in full time employment and have money coming out of my ears.
I assume that everybody in the country is getting it, from billionaires to binmen. Could it be that the nasty Conservatives are thinking of targetting benefits on those who actually need them? More to go round that way and more for those that genuinely need it. Probably not, just a thought.
As it is, I am putting my winter fuel allowance towards my first duck house. Reminder to self: get some ducks. And a pond.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#75
ED
Surprized you don't usually enter these debates, but nice that you have.
I'v said on here before we need to sort out the benefitrs system, but in a fair way, not just "there on benefits so they must be bad"
Yes Ed maybe as you say some don't need the fuel allowance, and yes maybe it neweds to be better targetted, but that gets inrto means testing, something opposed in a big way by many.
The many differeing tax credits have made a big diffrence to a lot of people and the conservatives don't believe in them they have made that clear.
So lets see how we can improve them if thats needed.
Sid Pollitt
#76
I think Roger is confused. One of the things that has been achieved since 1997 has been a reduction in unemployment, that is fewer people on benefits. There has been a rise in unemployed over the past 6 to 8 months due to a global economic slowdown and I'm sure that those that have lost their jobs in that time would rather be in work. Being on the fringe of things he has also not realised that the Tories under Cammoron have tried to drop the right wing baggage and move away from being the nasty party. Hopefully he'll get back on message soon.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#77
naughty naughty sid
Roger is an ok kind of guy, he does have passion for the ward/Dover
he's not always in tune with his party (we all have diosagreements with our parties)
We have often fought alongside each other on issues in Priory, on some cases you wouLd not even know who was the candidate for which party as we both fought the same corner.
I did as a cllr in priory find it difficult even trying to gert cllrs together to sort out diffrences, but they never realy went anywhere so i gave up on that and took each issue as it came and sometimes we would agree sometimes not.
All in all Roger does have passion for Dover, even if we may disagree from time to time how to achieve it
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#78
Thank you Keith.
I am not advocating taking benefits away from worthy people what ever their age; I would advocate a change in the benefit system so it isn't possible to make it a way of life as so many people have done and continue to do so.
Roger
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#79
Roger
I do think we can be poles apart on some issues and together on others.
The benefits system is also one that we may agree on, but again its how you achieve it that we may differ on.
I do believe as iv said before that if you get to a position of having to go on benefits then they should be earnt
it would have to be case by case but im sure everyone can do work of some kind, in the community helping others(maybe elderly)
or even at a desk
its a debate that will go on, im afraid no main political party will take this issue on, they will go around the edges, but it wont ever happen
i hope im wrong
