Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
28 November 2008
08:319931Yes after 11 years in power, on this day in 1990, 28 November, Mrs Thatcher bid a tearful farewell from the steps of Downing St. She was its fair to say totally unloved by almost everyone at that stage, save from a true blue few . Even among her own party there was great relief at her departure. An era was over but an era unmissed.
It was the time of greed. The time of the yuppie. The time of the city high flyer where the Porsche was king. But while many thrived, the great majority seemed to fall further and further behind. Like everyone else I had my snout in the bucket of gravy but was aware of the vast differences in society. The national assets were sold off to the few who could afford it, so the yuppies got even yuppier! and the rich got even richer. The miners were striking and all was turning very gloomy. The Unions were broken by legislation and then along came that curse of all political curses...The Poll Tax.
This penalised those most who had least. There were, as an immediate consequence, very very unsavoury riots in the streets of London and anarchy was a real possibility. It was all too much, and Margaret Thatcher was finished off by a knife wielding figure from her own party, one young blade called Michael Heseltine.
Guest 641- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 2,335
28 November 2008
11:349932Good posting PaulB, I too had my snout in the Gravy working with the likes of Sangster and Porsche surrounded by yuppies constantly coming out with sayings like 'Air Rally' (Oh Really), Yar Right (Okay) and Quite Fun (Sounds Great)
It was another world dominated with photographers taking pictures of the then young Lady Di (Childminder, lol!) the uniform of the day was straight collar, blue jumper and a string of pearls (Henrietta's) & striped shirt with white collar & cuffs (Hooray Henry's).
It was a great time for some but as you say it came crashing down big time when the Poll Tax riots threatened to domino out of control, some people ended up going to prison or deeper in debt due to the stranglehold of the dreaded Poll Tax.
It was the time for Thatcherism to end, not before time.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
28 November 2008
12:129933She was the greatest Prime-Minister since Churchill and helped to turn the country around from the looney left politics of the 70's.
Maggie showed everyone that if you work hard, you'll get your reward; Labour promote the view that a benefits lifestyle is O.K. - a hand-out, rather than a hand-up to a better life.
I know there are people who will be/are unable to cope on their own - the vulnerable and the weak and yes, we should look after these people, but there are an ever increasing number of lazy people, scroungers who are unwilling to work, even though they could.
Of course being on benefits (as a way of life - a lifestyle), they don't pay taxes, so to them, it doesn't matter how high the taxes are, they will always be O.K. under Labour - new or old.
We would be so much worse off than today if we never had Maggie.
I don't have figures to throw around, but I do know that this working-class bloke has been let down by all the Labour Governments over the last 40 years or so. I'm happy to call myself a Conservative with a capital "C".
Roger
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
28 November 2008
12:359935I never liked Maggie or her policies but thought her exit from the Tory party was undignified but thats the Tory party for you whose motto should read"Et tu Brute"?Here a couple of jolts from the past about Thatcher and my personal dislike of her..'lest we forget'.
1. As Education secretary under Edward Heath in a foretaste of what is to come, stops free milk for school children. No chance of the widely praised 'free fruit' scheme ever being Tory policy! She later deregulates school meals so all they have on the menu is burger and chips! The health of the nation was not something Thatcher thought any of her concern.
2. Shamelessly uses the 'race card' to get elected PM in 1979! "We are being flooded!" she asserts despite figures showing emigration higher than immigration and immigration at its lowest post-war level. Her idols are Keith Joseph (who ruined his own chance of being leader with a demon eyed rant on TV about sterilising the poor ) and Enoch Powell (the 'intellectual' racist).
3. Monetarism! Disastrous policy of trying to control money supply. In the first of her two recessions (the worst since the 1930's), one fifth of our industrial base is wiped out and unemployment is more than doubled, there are summer riots in every inner-city in the country. Not bad for her first 2 years in office! In the first of many U-turns , she abandons monetarism. Polls predict Labour landslide and despite the resolute support of the press, she is the most unpopular PM on record.
4. The Falklands! In a gross piece of incompetence (or was it deliberate?) fails to avert the Falklands crisis by ignoring intelligence on the Argentine preparation for invasion in early 1982. Indeed she seems to positively encourage it by proposing scrapping the only warship we have there and having her defence secretary Nicholas Ridley openly say we didn't want the Falklands, thereby giving the impression we are not bothered about the islands! In 1978 when faced with the same intelligence, the Labour government quietly averts a war through diplomatic channels by threatening to send a taskforce. It's the classic tale, to divert attention from disastrous economic policies at home a crooked leader engages in a foreign war (except I'm not talking about Galtieri!). Perhaps Thatcher was getting advice from some of the brutal dictatorships she helped prop up in South America, "Would you like some more tea Mr Pinochet?". Number of British soldiers killed, 278, Argentines, 3000+.
5. Destruction of local democracy. The beauty of not having a written constitution, having the backing of the press, having a massive majority in parliament (despite only getting 42% of the vote, less than 1 in 3 of the electorate) and having a permanent inbuilt Tory hereditory second chamber is that Tory PMs can do whatever they like. If you dont like local democracy because they vote for someone else, just abolish it like Thatcher did and centralise everything from Whitehall and unelected Quangos who you carefully select. (Yes, Thatcher invented Quasi Autonomous Non-Governmental Organisations.) The popular GLC was scrapped despite over 80% of Londoners being opposed. Londoners have to wait over 13 years before getting an assembly back and electing Livingstone as its leader once again.
6. Politicising the civil service. See point about QUANGOs above. Also if you dont like what statistics the statistics office is publishing, make sure you stop them collecting the statistics and stop them publishing them. The figures that were published on individual wealth and earnings each year were abolished in this way. The Office for National Statistics like the Bank of England was made independent by this Labour government and yes they have started publishing the wealth and earnings figures again.
7. Regressive Taxation. Under Thatcher VAT increased from 8% to 17.5% and was also levied on utility bills for the first time as well. What she gave the rich in income tax cuts she took from the poor in indirect taxation. The proportion of GDP spent by the government under Thatcher stayed fairly static at around 40%. The difference was that rather than spend it on the NHS, housing or education she spent the money on defence, a massive expansion of the civil service, paying the huge unemployment bill, and rising police salaries to keep them loyal in the face of massive civil unrest. The best part of all was that she shifted the burden of payment for all this onto the poor from the rich.
8. The widening gap between rich and poor. This might not be such a bad thing if the gap had not been so massive in the first place. How can the richest 50% owning 97% of the wealth be fair? This was her starting position she moved wealth almost exclusively to the richest 10% at the expense of the poorest 50%.
9. Spend, spend, spend! Abolishing credit controls seemed such a good idea, the economy booms on a consumer spending bubble....cue second crippling recession. Thanks Margaret! Not to mention the misery caused to millions of people suckered into debts and negative equity! Spend, spend, spend also applied to government borrowing which despite claims of financial prudence increased massively under Thatcher to fund income tax cuts for the rich.
10. Homelessness for the young. Why should homelessness be the preserve of ageing tramps who remember the 1930's. No! Thatcher thought the opportunities should be open to all. Young beggars on the streets were Thatcher's invention. The legacy of massive youth unemployment and crime no-go areas for the police are still being fought today. There is a whole generation of people where crime and welfare culture was their only way of surviving and it became their mindset.
11. The Poll Tax! Regardless of how you view this in theory, apart from its regressive nature, it quite plainly was unworkable. They knew that it was going to be ridiculously expensive to collect, that there was overwhelming opposition to it (it ruined the 1991 census) and was going to mean massive non-payment and it was responsible for some of the worst rioting ever seen in central London but they pressed ahead anyway. Another U-turn inevitably came!
12. The myth of the strong leader. This was a total invention of the press. Thatcher's only strength (if you could call it that) was that she had no principles at all! She was an anti-smoking campaigner who ended up on the payroll of British American Tobacco. She had to do a U-turn on her 'flagship' economic policy after 2 years because she had wrecked the economy (This was just one year after her famous speech in 1980 where she assured the party faithful she was going to stick to monetarist policies-"You turn if you want to...the lady's not for turning"-yeah right!!). The Poll Tax was a disaster which she had to U-turn on (but too late to save her from being stabbed in the back!). She went to Europe saying she was against federalism but signed its most federalist law (the Single European Act in 1986). She later claimed she was tricked on this. Did she even know what she was doing? Some strong leader that is! And to top it all off, even in departure she was weak. "I fight on, I fight to win" she said in her pompous way before quietly resigning hours later when confronted by Ministers like Geoffrey Howe!!! It was the final U-turn from a weak puppet leader whose only qualities (as far as the Tories were concerned) were she did what she was told.
13. Degradation of the social professions. Social workers were virtually denounced as criminals! Teachers were so derided and there pay so eroded it barely survived as a profession and things like mental health, just let them out on the streets.
14. Victorian Values. Yes before its Back to Basics successor under Major, Thatcher promised to take us back to Victorian morality and she nearly succeeded. We were not far away from child labour and seething slums of humanity and disease. I reckon Thatcher needed one more term for that!! She also took care to defend to the hilt her countless Ministers who were caught with their trousers down or hands in the till or both in some cases! Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer (3 times), Jonathon Aitkin (twice)... etc. etc. the list goes on.
15. "There is no such thing as society". Says BarryW on this forum.A quote from Maggie. Did Thatcher foresee the 'playstation' generation? Selfishness as a virtue seemed to sum up her warped sense of morality to me.
16. Over-privatisation and overt corruption. Oh the beauty of it, a totally dominant monopoly privatised at a discount price to big business (lots of it foreign owned) so they can cream off profits to their hearts content. Who can do without Water, Gas, Electricity? We can charge what we like! Plus we get the bonus of nice jobs on more Quangos OfWat, OfGas, Of-with taxpayers cash we go. With Ministers interchanging between the boardrooms of the newly privatised companies and the regulating boards on massive salaries. Even husband and wife teams, remember Mr and Mrs Howe, one a consultant with a privatised firm, his wife the regulator. Anyone for insider dealing calls out Mrs Archer! Oh jolly good show! Even industries that plainly werent feasible for privatisation like bus and rail, go for it, it wont hurt. And what shall we do with the money my dear? Well my son Mark has shares in a nice defence firm! Rather, still some left over for a nice reduction in the top rate of income tax as well.
17. Even public service broadcasting couldnt escape. Relentless bullying of the BBC was started by Thatcher, she took this to a new level with Tebbit and various other ministers calling it the Bolshevic Broadcasting Company because it failed to replicate Sun editorial lines in its news broadcasts. In one of her last acts she even managed to wreck Channel 4' s public service commitment by changing its funding situation from one of subscription from ITV who sold its advertising space to total dependence on advertising.
18. The divisiveness of the North-South divide in wealth. Look at the political map and you can still see where the Conservatives win most of their seats in the South East because of this.
19. Regular winter crises in the NHS became the norm. The Tories argued these were inevitable because we couldnt afford to fund the NHS properly. There are no winter crises anymore! A decent heating allowance is now paid to all pensioners.
20. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher. This is probably the most surprising statistic of the lot when you consider the Tories so called strong standing on law and order. It just goes to demonstrate why we need a history lesson about Thatcher and not the lies printed in the right wing owned press.
So Roger to echo your words these are just some of the reasons why I'm proud to call myself a socialist and why myself and other like minded individuals partied like mad after the 1997 General Election.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
28 November 2008
15:049937Which labour web-site did you get all that from Marek ?
Roger
Sid Pollitt
28 November 2008
15:449938Why is it that is all you can say Roger? You must be Labour. Why dont you try to answer some some Marek's points? Or the one I've posed twice recently: has the Tories recent do-nothing stance signalled the abandonment of their claims to be a party of progressive politics? You'll recall, I'm sure, that many Tories, notably Ian Duncan Smith, have been strutting around in recent years saying that their more cuddly and caring and would, if ever they got in power, not be so nasty and judgemental in social policy.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
28 November 2008
19:029943Roger
You asked about the website it was
Tories r us
Marek
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
28 November 2008
19:139944Roger
If you wish to be serious all you have to do is address the points raised in my posting.
You will note that even though I disagreed with her policies I had some compassion in the way her fellow Tories and supporters got rid of her.One minute they were singing her praises the next minute they were calling for her blood.
She deserved rightly or wrongly a more fitting end to her political career.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
28 November 2008
19:549945interesting that she did more to create a handout society than anyone politician has ever managed.
the leopard does not change it's spots.
only this week we had the government trying to keep people in work, whilst the blues, true to form, were sitting on their hands ready to accept the inevitable, social breakdown and bankrupcies not a problem.
i always remember a certain mr heseltine saying that mass unemployment was a small price to pay for social change, this from a multi millionaire that was born into money, and never knew how the majority of the population got by.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
28 November 2008
20:049947Roger, I, like thousands of others, worked hard when thatcher was PM. I was neither political or union minded, I just wanted a job with a wage packet, my reward for working hard was to have my colliery closed, when it was still, viable and breaking productivity records, forcing hundreds of hard working families onto the dole and taking future employment away from our area, amongst other things, was that the reward you are talking about?
. Of course the union stranglehold in the seventies was unbalancing this country and needed addressing but not by annihilating as many hard working people as possible, sledge hammer and peanut, the unbalance is the other way now. Being on benefits might be a way of life for a few, but it is not for the Majority. Why do people like you blame the whole when in fact it is only a few, I know lots of nice conservatives, I know that they are not all like you and barry.
I have said it before and I will say it again, most people just want their fair share and live their lives peacefully. Less greed more common sense.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
28 November 2008
21:289952Marek - you are a God!!! Milk Snatcher was a demon. Still is even though we are now told to back off her because she has dementia and is a widow....just like all those with dementia, all those who were widows, all those whose men faced ruin and depression during her reign, all those who suffered and struggled because of her. My kids made me laugh when they were younger....at Primary the teacher instigated a discussion about politics, and my daughters said that "Mummy says she is having a party when Thatcher dies - will you come?" Talk about nailing your parents colours to the mast..........! And please don't post chiding me for being callous...........
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
28 November 2008
22:549955bern
the woman was totally cold hearted, she created a selfish society where some gained and others lost through no fault of their own.
she taught us all how to be callous.
29 November 2008
10:169958Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
29 November 2008
17:309968Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
30 November 2008
08:539981Well thanks guys !
Some of those events did of course take place, but the interpretation of the consequences are determined which side of the political fence you are on.
As I stated, I don't have the figures to throw about, but I have looked on many web-sites since that posting and read many arguments for and against her and I could list 20, 30 or 100 reasons why Maggie was good for Britain, as Marek has for why she was bad.
I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, I was born in a Council house (in St.Albans), the fifth of six children. My Dad was a postman (previously a coal-miner in Lancashire - Wigan) and my Mum had to take in washing to help pay the bills; I don't come from a privileged background, I'm as working class as they come.
I didn't go to a grammar school (I wasn't allowed to take the 11-plus because, I was told, my Dad was just a postman and there were six kids); I went to a Secondary Modern - the precursor to Comprehensives.
I don't like laziness; I don't like people who don't want to work; I believe a good education is the key to freedom (to live the life you deserve). I believe there are those who are born to lead and those who are born to follow, but I also believe we should give them the opportunity to become Leaders.
I also believe there are vulnerable people in society who need help, who are not able to live a full life on there own. We must always care for the weak and inadequate, but we must also encourage those who want to get on; encourage them to live a life less ordinary - there is too much ordinariness in too many people's lives.
Whether you support Maggie Thatcher or not determines where you are in life; I am comfortable where I am (not financially I'd like to add).
Roger
30 November 2008
11:429996Whether I support M Thatcher or not does not, indeed, determine where I am in life. I am defined by a much broader set of criteria!!! I also dislike laziness, believe in work etc etc etc ad nauseum, but that doesn't make me a Thatcherite, a Blue, or a good or bad person, or anything else, it just makes me me.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
30 November 2008
11:439997I am definitely with Marek on this one and I think it would be difficult to find any of Roger's 100 reasons in her favour that did not rely on statistics the counting of which were altered while she was in office. The method of counting unemployment was changed so many times it is now almost impossible to get a true figure. The other great fiasco, poll tax, had been abandoned by every other country, except Papua New Guinea which was in the process of phasing it out when Maggie introduced it here. The destruction of the building industry as a by-product of 'right to buy' by forbidding councils using the revenue to build more homes still effects us today, as does the tax on refurbishment making it cheaper to demolish and rebuild.
It is still a fact that she took power following a poster campaign showing queue's of unemployed and saying that 3/4 of a million was too many and then, a few years later was claiming success in getting it down to 3 million.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
30 November 2008
12:149998So why align with the Conservatives Roger? I too believe that education (whatever shape that takes) is the key to providing people with choice and freedom and always feel frustrated with the crazy systems we have to tolerate. The sad reality in this country is that what you achieve is largely down to what your parents have and do, babies do not have the choice to not be born into poverty. Conservative thinking preserves the devices that stunt social mobility and yet they still attempt to sell the idea that 'you can have it if you really want' For instance it is the Conservative party still largely support the Grammar school system that starts dividing society at the age of 11. This was used as a tool in ensuring that your route through education was similar to that of your parents, as it was in my fathers, and to an extent my own. I think all the schools in Dover do a great job (we have no Comprehensives), with what is essentially a tough demographic, but why this segregation has to take place I'm not sure. To make matters worse, if you have money you can pay for an education, something little to do with qualification and everything to do status and networking. People get great jobs because they can afford to go to the right place not because they work hard! In the words of Billy Bragg "just because you're better than me, doesn't mean I'm Lazy"
It also seems ironic that the stability offered to your family was partially based within a house provided by the state. There are still people out there, that are good parents bringing up their children in loving families but through the system they were born into cannot afford to buy (or even don't want to, which is fine). These people have to rent through private lettings increasing the wealth of a few, there are not enough Council Houses....why? Oh yes Maggie sold them all off, did she build more, no. Elements like social housing and 'Comprehensive' education offer people the start they need in a country riddled with privilege.
Yes you are comfortable, but there are plenty more comfortable than you and they have not worked for it at all (they are rich, privileged and lazy). A child born into a family of 6 today would be very lucky to have the stability of a council house to grow up in, just because of sever depletion started by Mrs T. That isn't interpretation, that is fact!
30 November 2008
13:319999Way to Go DT1, with you all the way! I am amazingly pacifist, forgiving, inclusive and empowering, and yet I will join the extended queue to dance on Thatchers grave when the time comes. I resent that she has made me feel that way. And it is not a case of projecting all our woes onto one person....she was as bad as she is painted, she did irreperable damage to us, and she is unforgivable.
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
30 November 2008
20:5310026DT1,Brilliant! I will be sad when M.T goes,I will not celebrate because she was a leader of this Country and I will pay her due respect,but I will not celebrate,because I do not think that is right to celebrate someone death.But.....
I will also recall what she did to the average person when she was in power,how she made sure those who struggle were kept down while those more lucky financially were better off,how she strangled the working man because he had the right to join a union and take industrial action because that was the only way he could voice his opinion.How she sold off everything,and we are paying for it now!
No I will give her due respect,and raise a glass to her,but not in celebration but for being one hell of a woman,who gave men and women Hell.
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
