Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
1 December 2008
17:2510039Well, well, when the cat away..........
I leave for a nice long weekend in Limoges and what do I find on my return!
I have only scan read this absurd tirage of re-hashed left wing drivel. Needless to to that there is no mention of the appalling economic state that Mrs T inherited in 1979 and how she transformed our economy into the modern thrusting successful nation we are (or were in 1997!)
I am not going to run through a detailed reply, life is too short and there are much more pressing matters to deserve comment on than this.
Sid Pollitt
1 December 2008
17:3510041Well thought out and passionate reasons for disliking Thatcher I'd say, backed up with facts and figures. She inherited lowers rate of VAT, inflation and unemployment than she obviously liked the look of. All of those are down from the heady pre 97 days of Major.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
1 December 2008
17:4310043DT1
I aligned with the Conservatives because I feel that they reward hard work more and Labour reward and seem to encourage, those on benefit to stay there.
I don't believe in class, although I accept it is still quite prevalent; I do believe that the vast majority of people who vote Conservative are ordinary working class people who, due to what has happened over the last 11 years, simply distrust Labour - as I do.
Those who are older, harp on about Maggie and what she cut out - much of what she cut out was dead-wood and bad practices (O.K. I'm not talking about school milk, but how much of that was actually drunk - warm milk is horrible, which is what school milk was).
I completely disagree John that she kept the working man down - I was and still am a working (class) man - not working though, not paid work anyway. She did try to curtail the too-strong union practices and of course they had many thousands of members - I was a member of the union when I worked for NatWest; but in many cases the unions don't have the best of the members interests at heart, more their own political agenda.
Going back 50 years, we had orange-drink at school, I don't know who cut that out.
It wasn't a case of making a selfish society as someone said, but a society where hard-work was rewarded. Laziness should never be rewarded. Being on benefits should never be a way of life, but a safety net.
I just cannot understand how ordinary people keep voting Labour when it is Labour who are keeping them down and letting them down too.
Conservatives give a hand-up to a better life, Labour principles seem to have nothing to do with helping improve anyone's life, but with keeping people in their place - where ever that is - giving them a hand-out and taxing higher and higher all those in work.
The only thing I can see that will agree on, is that we must agree to differ - and obviously quite fundamentally.
Roger
Sid Pollitt
1 December 2008
17:5610045Roger, it was a case of making a selfish society. That's exactly what she fostered. And the safety net was left in disrepair.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
1 December 2008
18:3110055there are some strong views for and against maggie thatcher here and seems to becoming a bit heated,i personnly did not like the woman or her politics her policys ruined many people rich and poor alike.i am just wondering if she had teachings from hitler,boneapart and artilla the hun.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
1 December 2008
18:3710058BarryW, Roger. 1979 3/4 million unemployed, 1985 over 3 million unemployed. Did wonders for the country?
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
1 December 2008
20:4010063roger
you persist on repeating your parties dogma on "hand up rather than hand out".
the conservatives do not change, when confronted with the problems faced with potential mass unemployment
they decided that nothing should be done.
it would be handouts not handups from them.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
1 December 2008
20:4910066hands up whos skirt howard.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
1 December 2008
21:1310067So on the basis no one can off an 'absurd tirage of re-hashed right wing drivel' in defense of Mrs T, I think we can all concur she was a bit rubbish and a bit evil...just as I thought.
Roger, I don't want to believe in class either but we cannot deny it's existance. I bet you quite like the Royal Family, did they have a hand up, hand out...or are they just better than us? (by the way I have no real issues with the Royals, I just enjoy the way they compromise right wing thinking)
1 December 2008
21:5010068Hand up, hand out...hang on!! One persistent myth that all shades of Purple seem to believe is that people are either lazy or hard working. The reality is that most people are a bit of both, in the same way that most people are ok most of the time but do some horrid things sometimes. One of the disadvantages of polarised politics is that it leaves little or no room for sense and honesty.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
2 December 2008
17:1710126Which all explains why I stay firmly against the two party see-saw politics. The hardest fight you have is getting away from it because, if you are against a Conservative policy you must be Labour then if you are against a Labour policy you must be Conservative. Why? A good idea is good whoever came out with it just as a bad idea is still bad whatever its origin. The hardest battle independents have is not so much getting things done (although then you have to fight through party line dogma to get anything accepted) it is the constant struggle against party stereotyping. At least I will never have to speak out against measures I approve of because a party meeting decided otherwise.
The worst thing Thatcher did was make Labour look good and the worst thing the Labour party did was take lessons from her in how to govern.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
2 December 2008
17:56101332 December 2008
17:5710134That was as articulate as I could manage - sorry!!! It's been a long day............
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
4 December 2008
18:1610335Our MEP has written an article about Mrs T in the Telegraph which I found very interesting. Given the rabid attacks on Mrs T in this thread I think it only fair to reproduce the article here and I think it is worth doing so in full. I have had many debates on here about Mrs T and decided that getting enaged in this one would be pointless. But just to even up this debate here is the article by Dan Hannen and it appears in the Telegraph:
------Posted By: Daniel Hannan at Dec 4, 2008 at 16:59:57 [General]
A play is about to open in London, based on the aftermath of Margaret Thatcher's death. Two Leftie friends of mine are going, slavering with anticipation. "It won't be a patch on when the real thing happens, though," said one, in a half-jokey manner that was intended to enrage me - and did.
Lefties can be selfless and high-minded. They can also be envious, self-regarding and downright spiteful. Rarely are they as nauseating as when discussing Margaret Thatcher, whose eventual demise is regarded as a topic of legitimate celebration by BBC comedy writers and Guardian columnists.
Their dislike, for what it's worth, is wholly unreciprocated. Margaret Thatcher is often described as a divisive leader, and there is an element of truth in the charge. She never fantasised, Blair-like, about rising above party and representing the entire nation. She was much readier to think in terms of us and them: how to help people who wanted to get on, work, buy their homes and so on; and how to circumvent those who wanted to stop them. Yet her politics never became personal: she never hated her opponents and, to this day, talks of them with a handsome generosity.
I was lucky enough to sit next to the great lady at a small dinner party given last night by my friend Dominic Johnson: a man of colossal energy, intelligence and charm whom I have long been tying to persuade to stand for Parliament. It was a huge improvement on our last meeting, when I managed to hit the former PM on the shoulder while making an expansive point ("Don't worry, dear, don't worry: we're quite alright"). Like many people of her age, she is most animated when talking of remote times, and we had long conversations about Dartford, where she stood as a candidate before being selected in Finchley, about the EU, and about the Falklands War: the formative event of my childhood. We talked, too, of the English Civil War, and which side one ought to have picked. And we talked of Michael Foot, whom I have always regarded as one of the greatest figures of the Twentieth Century. She couldn't have been warmer about her old rival, praising his integrity, his intellect, his rhetorical ability and his personal decency.
As I came home, I thought: not many Labour people talk about their opponents that way. And perhaps this tells us more about them than about their opponents.
Why do Lefties hate Thatch so much? Because she presided over the collapse of the old industries? It must surely be obvious by now that nothing would have kept the dockyards and coalmines and steel mills open. A similar process of deindustrialisation has unfolded in every other Western European country, and the only parties that still talk of "reviving our manufacturing base" are Respect, the Scottish Socialists and the BNP.
No, what Lefties (with honourable exceptions) find so hard to forgive is the lady's very success: the fact that she rescued a country that they had dishonoured and impoverished; that she inherited a Britain that was sclerotic, indebted and declining and left it proud, wealthy and free; that she never lost an election to them. Their rage, in truth, can never be assuaged; for it is the rage of Caliban.---------------end.
Sid Pollitt
4 December 2008
18:3610339Doing a good job as an MEP, no. Writing fiction and pocketing wads of euros, yes.
4 December 2008
19:0910346I am clear that I have a keen dislike of Mrs T for lots of very real reasons - but I was forced to step back a pace recently and rein myself in when listening to an incredibly articulate black musician talking about how she galvanised his generation into thinking "maybe i can do it" - he described a generation of people who did poorly at school, had disadvantaged backgrounds, poor parenting, low expectations, but buckets of talent, who gathered thmeselves up and just ran full tilt at success. He remembered being boosted by her attitude of "get on your bike" (to use Tebbits phrase) and says they did just that and decided that success came in lots of ways, and went for it. Respect! There is always a back story, and success as well as failure in any tale. I still hate Thatcher, for very good reasons, but there were some pockets of endeavour where she shone.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
4 December 2008
19:5510354Sid -what are you suggesting, that Dan's conversation did not take place? You live in a strange world if you cannot at least acknowedge a good point made well. Dan's experience is born out by my own (more limited) experience of meeting Mrs T and what many others have said about her. Tony Benn recently spoke warmly about her and she about him, she called him dear, if I remember correctly.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
5 December 2008
08:2510385BarryW - you cannot have a reasoned argument, or use logic, with dyed-in-the-wool lefties like Sid - you cannot change their colour or point of view.
It's the same as banging your head on a brick-wall, you'll only get a head-ache.
Roger
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
5 December 2008
11:0510396Roger - a bit unfair on Bern though given what she said!!!!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
5 December 2008
11:0510397Roger - a bit unfair on Bern though given what she said!!!!
