Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
2 December 2008
10:0010097The truth will indeed win out Marek and I will be very happy that it does. There will be many resignations over this I expect. We know enough and the Constitutional issues are very clear. There has never been such a unified outrage at what has happened.
The failure of the left wing posters on this forum, unlike many elsewhere, to appreciate the importance of what has happened and its full ramifications to our democracy is something you should be ashamed of. It is your left wing colleagues that are showing you up and are clearly demonstrating a greater appreciation of what is happeneing than you. They are able to put aside, to their credit, partisan politics, unlike you lot here.
Sid Pollitt
2 December 2008
13:0810104If we dont support the Tories we've left wing, mad or bad, or partisan. Barry, partisan? Surely not, what a crime. It's a good job Barry is the voice of reason. I am not partisan myself, I just post my opinions if that's ok. And I'm with Barry on this issue, the truth will win out, but we'll have to wait see what that is dont you think. Me, I dont think there's smoke without fire on this.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
2 December 2008
13:1710107But Sid, what fire and what smoke?
The only thing that has been dragged up is low level information that embarrassed the Government. There has been nothing even suggested that would be as serious as, for instance, the MoD leaks that Churchill benefitted from or the Treasury leaks Brown benefitted from...
If there was something more serious it would have broken by now.
I do not pretend to be non-partisan but I would hope that if it was the other way around, that I would be supportive of the freedom and supremacy of Parliament, in the same unpartisan way so many in the public eye have been over this.
Sid Pollitt
2 December 2008
13:2510108That's the trouble Barry, you're too partisan. What people here are saying is that maybe something has gone on and they will need to be brought to book, maybe they wont. It's for the Police at this time, the law isnt upheld by the right wing press or mobs in this country.
I think that the Police wanted to go after this Home Office guy and they knew the only way they'd be able to search Green's offices was to arrest him, job done. I also think they'll charge him and not Green, that's if they dont find something on the MP they werent expecting, which is possible isnt it?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
2 December 2008
14:5310111Sid - you are still missing the whole point.
There is no 'right wing press or mobs' objecting here as such - it is the press and politicians from left AND right. There is a non-partisan agreement about this issue.
You are no less partisan than I am, many reading this wont remember you as a Labour Councillor but I have not forgotten.
I would hope that if this happened under a Conservative Government that I would feel the same about the supremacy of Parliament and take a non-partisan view of this issue in the same way as people like Tony Benn has done from the left.
You have simply bought the Government spin hook line and sinker.
It is the Government, police and House of Commons authorities that are coming out worse from this. If you want I could provide dozens of quotes to demonstrate that.
Sid Pollitt
2 December 2008
15:0110113No, Barry, the point hasnt been missed by me. I'm sure you could find quotes to support the likes of Aitken and Archer when they were accused of wrongdoing. If the Police have made a mistake it will come out, if the accused are guilty do you not think they should be prosecuted?
With regard to my former life as a politician I would have thought everyone knows my past.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
2 December 2008
15:1010117Not from their political opponents, Sid - you keep ignoring the cross Party aspects to this, very convenient for distorting and downplaying what happened. THAT is the point that you are deliberately missing.
Sid Pollitt
2 December 2008
15:1210118Dont you think, like me, that the Police wouldnt have arrested him unless they had some suspicions and that there is no smoke without fire then?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
2 December 2008
16:0710121As I said, what smoke, what fire?
On the basis of this arrest under some obscure provision not aimed at MP's Gordon brown should have been arrested as indeed should Winston Churchill....
This is about shutting up dissent.
Sid Pollitt
2 December 2008
16:1510122I'm against those trying to politicise the legal process. Does anyone here know if this Home Office chappie, or Damien Green for that matter, are innocent? Didnt think so.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
2 December 2008
16:4810124In respect of Damian green what offense has been committed that Gordon Brown has not been guilty of?
The Civil Servants involved are in a different position.
Sid Pollitt
2 December 2008
16:5310125I DONT KNOW, it is being investigated by the Police and I for one am going to let them get on with it. Do you know what the offence is? Maybe he's innocent though, do you think that's possible?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
2 December 2008
17:4410130I see so you think it is OK to arrest an MP with no idea of whether an offence being committed, and for doing exactly what the present prime Minister did previously in opposition!!!
The only offfence that anyone has been able to suggest is one of embarrassing the Government...
My point made.
Sid Pollitt
2 December 2008
18:0310135Embarrassment is not an offence under English law Barry, anything else you want correcting on? This Home Office guy looked shifty on the telly didnt he? Green looked like he had the type of face of someone who might groom someone to give over information, not conclusive I know but Judge Judy would have made a judgement I think. With your logic Barry the likes of Aitken and Archer would not have done time, why is that? Are you saying Green, Aitken and Archer are above the law?
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
2 December 2008
18:1010136So the government in power is using the judicial system to silence those who might leak information damaging to them. How is that new?
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
2 December 2008
20:3410148Sid - you really do like to go off on irrelivancies and avoid the substantive points.
Yes it is not illegal to embarrass the Government and that is exactly my point because that is all Green did over immigration, so they find so obscure clause as an excuse to arrest him.
Aitken and Archer was nothing to do with any their performance of their democratic role but in both cases related to sleeze. The Green case is nothing to do with sleeze it refers to the age old ways that Oppositions hold Government to account, their democratic duty.
Chris - What is new about using the judicial system to silence some who might leak information? the answer is nothing. What IS new in this case is that the person who received the leaked information, an Opposition MP was arrested, not the 'leaker' of information. Churchill and Gordon Brown were not arrested in a simular situation. The point being the use of leaks from Government departments by Opposition MP's is a normal and established part of effective opposition.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
2 December 2008
21:1110151Isn't incitement to commit a crime still a criminal offence?
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
2 December 2008
21:5810155that was an exhausting read.
the sid and barry show is very well scripted.
getting back to the nuts and bolts of the matter, the real issue should be that anti terrorist officers raided the home and office of the arrested chap over a matter of possible corruption.
the leaker of information seems a disgruntled cove that had an axe to grind.
the home secretary, who i do not have much respect for, has made a good point.
there is little up for discussion at this time, it is a police matter.
on the face of things the arrest seems to be overkill, but we should now let the case run its course.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
2 December 2008
22:1810157There is no suggestion of corruption or indeed incitement to commit a crime
The fact is that Green did nothing that Brown and Churchill (along with many other Opposition MPs over many years) have not done and is not established.
Interesting that no-one has attempted to draw any division between what Green did compared to Churchill and Brown, simply because there is none. You just ignore the point.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
2 December 2008
22:4410161sid,barry the point being what.