Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
If Greece is so totally bankrupt, and considering that Portugal and Spain and Italy are on the verge of following Greece's footsteps and slipping in a very greasy mess of bankruptcy which will need bailing out from other States, and considering that Britains national State debits are about twice the amount of the national annual budget....and....(sorry!) considering that Germany's nationl debits are even worse then ours, and similar can be said for other western e.u. member states.... and ....again, considering that the eastern european e.u. states would collapse economically withing five days if the western ones stopped handing them over tens of billions of euros a year and one factory after another and stopped allowing their nationals to march through in masses and get jobs and benefits in the West,..... then... how can any political paty in Britain prior to this coming General election possibly be in favour of us remaining an e.u. state, and claim to be serious when they talk of changing our bankruptcy???
Much better to put ourselves outside the body who will negotiate their way through this mess then. We got it alone and get no help or support from the rest of Europe. Maybe some third world countries will step forward to save us eh?
Get real Aleander. Our only hope of getting through this is if a large number of affected states work togther, even if they require the IMF to bankroll some for a short period; as with Greece for instance.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
A lot has been said about those near bankrupt countries coming out of the Euro - that would be interesting wouldn't it ?
The £/Euro exchange rate would change tremendously.
Roger
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Sid, will you be paying the 600.million pounds (Britain's 15 percent of IMF) to bail out Greece, and the billions that Britain would have to pay to bail out Spain, Portugal and Italy? If so, then go ahead, but please don't tell me to contribute to these bail-outs or to vote for them. I hope people reading this will think the same, and ask you, Sid, to fork out the money if you have so much, and not tell the People to do so. It is obvious that the Tories are going to lead us into a catastrophe if they are already promissing to fling the money via IMF to bail out bankrupt WESTERN e.u. coiuntries, which can't bail themselves out, and yet still tell us that "we must stay in the e.u." I think you are kidding, Sid!
Britain's national debit is already twice the national budget! You go ahead and pay the money, Sid!
Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
Sorry to disagree, Sid, but I think we should (as you put it) put ourselves outside the body that will negotiate their way through this mess. Why should the British taxpayer bankroll a mismanaged Greek economy when our own economy is in such a parlous state? We've had to prop up the British economy by bailing out our own banks to ensure that the City didn't founder, and we're being told that the recovery is so fragile we could dip back into recession at any time.....so, if we're in such a state, surely it makes sense to save the money and invest in rebuilding a British manufacturing industry that keeps British taxpayers in a job in the short term as well as the long term.
The EU is an ideal and idealism is fine in theory but rarely in practice.
True friends stab you in the front.
Alexander/Andy, you propose a "Little Englander" scenario which I cannot support. We may be bailing out Greece, Spain and Portugal, but, if we need help too, it will be forthcoming. In unity lies strength.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Sid, in case you did not get the message: we are bankrupt by two times the annual national budget! if YOU have the money, go ahead and bail out Greece. With YOUR own money. But remember, that what Greece's government is asking for is just a fraction of that country's total debits, which go way beyond 4,5 billion pounds. Greece's actual debits are many times higher. They are actually asking for an emergency bail out just so as to pay the interest on their debits! Barry doesn't explain these things, and wrote that my explanations in this regard are nonsense! I'v just replied to him on his blog. Sid, if you have the money to give Greece (15 percent of the IMF loan = 600.million pounds), then remember, that after six months, the Greek government will be asking you for another 15 % of a new IMF loan, to pay their next bout of interest on their total state debit!!!
Does that sink in? Have you got that much money, Sid? Don't expect the British People to run out and hand over billions of pounds to every bankrupt e.u. state!!!
Alexander, you continue to beat your pathetically bigoted ante-EU little drum instead of absorbing what others say. What is it you do not understand about member states helping each other in times fo crisis? And in case you had forgotten already, the same help is available to all, and all nations in the EU help each other.
Furthermore, we were in worse trouble than Greece under the Callaghan Labour government and only licking the boots of the IMF got us through until such times as the Tories brought some sensible fiscal management to bear; as they have to do yet again from 7th May onwards.
Nowadays, we have better protection against this sort of thing thanks to being members of the EU.
Finally, I don't mind my taxes helping Greece because one day, Greek taxes will help us; that's how it works, pure and simple.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
So, you are telling us that after Greece, we will be so bankrupt that Greece must help us!!! Sid!!! You just scored a total and complete home-goal. Please keep this up!
Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
I accept your criticism, Sid. However, it's not from a "Little Englander" scenario, it's from a pragmatic economic stance. I see on the BBC news at lunchtime that the Spanish economy has been downgraded by the money markets and that Portugal and Italy are likely to follow..........how many more countries have to have their economies fail before common sense takes over and people say 'enough is enough'? No bank in the world would continue to pump good money into a failing company, so why should the Euro Zone be any different? If being a 'Little Englander' means speaking out against moronic economics, then - yes, guilty as charged.
True friends stab you in the front.
Guest 672- Registered: 3 Jun 2008
- Posts: 2,119
I have to say Sid......I don't agree with you.
I don't pretend to know a lot about this but IF all countries are getting skint, where IS all of the money going?
We can't give away what we aint got and we aint gonna get off of someone else what they aint got.
grass grows by the inches but dies by the feet.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Its a matter of Governments spending more than they get in. The UK Government is spending £164bn more than it gets in tax revenue this year alone and the present government has plans to reduce that to about £74bn per annum by 2014 (on over optimistic growth forecasts). That means there is more and more debt piling up along with all the interest on top. To put these figures into perspective, the Defence budget is about £35bn a year and that is less than the interest alone currently being paid.... These are horrifying figures. Where is it going - look around you at everything that is spent by the public sector including benefits, education, health and so on.
This arises from the same symptoms that result with individuals spending too much and getting themselves into financial problems from high debt. Some Governments thing that common sense money management rules dont apply to them.
Guest 672- Registered: 3 Jun 2008
- Posts: 2,119
Soooo basicaly speaking you and I get taxed more to bail everyone else out, Including other countries?
Thats how it sounds to me.
grass grows by the inches but dies by the feet.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
More complex than that Ian. Dont forget that in the 70's the last Labour Government had to be bailed out by the IMF so I am sure that French/german/Greek taxpayers would have said the same then.
Think of an insurance policy that you have never claimed on. Same kind of thing really.
I am about to pay a levy to the FSA of £750 to cover losses regarding financial firms in respect a product failure. It was a product that I never believed in and avoided like the plague, I had a bad feeling about it and none of my clients have been affected. I still have to pay and have no choice in the matter. Again the same sort of principal.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
if i can add my two pennoth here, the german public are going bananas over this, they are seeing their hard earned taxes going to a country that has been living the high life at other peoples expense.
the media is completely against the bail out, there are phone ins everywhere inundated with irate germans.
the tax take in greece is minimal, a lot of people have never filled in a form in their life.
a receipt for anything is as rare as a valid tax disc in west belfast.
an army of civil servants live the high life while the rest are entrenched in the black economy.
don't forget that greece lied many times about the level of their problems in order to join the euro.
greece today, portugal tomorrow, spain the day after, maybe italy too.
I am afraid that I am with Sid on this one. I was wholly committed to europe when it was smaller and I regret that it went into getting in all the minor countries. I sincerely hope we Dont allow Turkey to join - or indeed any other until we have stability.
however we are in and those who shout about how we can get out havent considered the alternative - that is us becoming ,very rapidly a third world country.
After all we are full of immigrants many of whom are in the black economy or draining our resources by sending money home. It cant be stopped no matter what is promised as the damage is done. Most of our major companies are foreign owned look at the high st and find an original british name ( thank you Abbey national). and we dont manufacture much that cant be bought abroad cheaper and we have no economic natural recources. On top of which the City of London can soon move to germany or Hong Kong.
I do not believe in the idealistic view that our Empire will save us - and American investment is pulling out rapidly ( eg pfizers).
We are a sorry bunch really living on past glories and believing we are better than we really are. What we need is a bit more realism and hard work and less whingeing. Time to roll up sleeves - bring in later retirement stop mass imigration, yes, but work with europe and be a leader in it as its the only mass market that we have been invited to ( heaven knows why they want us but they do). stop all the soft legislation and let business get moving.
well thats my rant over - Ill go home now to my lasagna and chip!
Bob, your comedy locker is a bit spartan mate!
David, later retirement only works if the rampant ageism in the employment market is cured.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
bob is being a bit surreal here.
before you know it, that wagner bloke will be knocking out a tune.
Howard, actually I have always found 'Die Walküre' to be the least satisfying part of the Ring Cycle.
Tristan and Isolde for me every time as the ultimate Wagnerian Opera. The ultimate in aural sex as I described it to someone!
