Terry Nunn
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,302
I'd just like to echo the sentiments about Bill Newman, he is a real gentleman who, to my knowledge never stooped to snide remarks about fellow councillors. Hard luck Bill.
All the same, congratulations are in order to Nigel and Roger both of whom I have known for more years than I care to remember.
I suspect that now the campaigning has ended the profits at a certain Castle Street hostelry will plunge. I did try to get my lunch put on Charlie's tab once but it didn't work!
Terry
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Well said Nigel and well said all those who have paid tribute to Bill Newman - a true gent if ever there was one.
Hope you new County Councillors find time for all the hardwork that's in store for you all.
Well done again.
Roger
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
saw nigel in town today, his voice was just a croak, must have been all those acceptance speeches.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
After some number crunching over the result and looking at this Constituency-wide here are some findings: (double member divisions have been averaged):
Votes % share Change
Cons 11,338 43.7 8.1
Lab 6,163 23.8 -18.5
LD 6,040 23.3 4.2
Other 2,405 9.3 7.4
Total 25,946
I make the swing over 13%. Labour were within 120 votes of falling to third place. They probably were third when the Eastry and Sholden villages of the Sandwich division are included.
This was not just a routine Labour collapse - the Conservatives saw their share of the vote rise more strongly than elsewhere. Best for the Tories was Dover Town where the swing was 18% and the Conservative vote rose there by 15%. This is very promising for the Conservatives at the General Election.
Sid Pollitt
During the euro election coverage on the TV last night it was said that the Tories would need a swing of over 8% to take an overall majority in a general election. This has only been achieved twice since 1945 and the showing in last week's elections, it was said, did not show signs that the Tories could win enough seats. Their showing in the Euro elections was similar to that achieved in 2004, a year before they lost the general. So while it is encouraging for them it certainly isnt a done deal.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
That is a problem we have which is essential to resolve. The huge electoral bias in favour of Labour that can create a large Conservative majority of the popular vote leaving Labour with most MPs. We need to level the size of Constituencies.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
barry
have you done the number crunching on the euro elections yet.
according to my calculations, if last weeks vote is transposed into a national election, the blues would scrape in by a few seats.
that would only be because of the first past the post system
if there was the much fairer pr system, a coalition government would come into being.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
I have answered regarding the Euros elsewhere.
All PR does is place power in the hands of politicians and back door deals.
We have, effectively, coalition Governments now, with Labour and Conservatives both being 'broad churches' with a broad range of opinions within them. The Labour right and Tory left cross over with each extending beyond to cover a very wide range of views.
The present system means the various wings of the Parties have to come to an agreed programme to place before the electorate before an election rather than have horse trading afterwards among a myrad of smaller parties. The electors therefore know what type of Government they are voting for.
This means that the 'middle ground' is where the battles lay so the extremists, like the BNP and Socialist Workers do not get a look in.
The British system is much more democratic as a result and all the better for usually producing clear cut results.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
As Sid say's it aint yet a done deal, and the public have just protested.
many will return.
I have never supported the P R system and seeing the BNP get 2 seats reaffirms that view.
It's going to be an interesting year
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i really don't see a problem with every vote counting for something.
it is just the apologists for the old parties that hate it, rocks the cosy little boat for them.
they will just have to work harder to please us with the pr thing.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
would rather work hard and please via first past the post
BARRYW
So next stage for tories is to away with seats as you cant win enough seats!!
thats democracy!!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
keith
you are contradicting yourself, first past the post does not reflect the wishes of the electorate.
you and your mate barry might like it, in fact must like it.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Keith - no it is repairing the FPTP system that is needed. currently there is an imbalance where there are a number of very small constituencies giving the electorate there much greater influence over the outcome of an election than the electorate in other areas. A re-balancing of the size of constituencies to level them out, combined with a reduction in the number of MPs is they way to resolve the anomaly.
As a democrat I am sure you would not want to defend a system that ensures an inbuilt 'rotten borough' advantage to one party.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Howard - I have already explained why PR is so undemocratic. Instead of just repeating your support for it blandly can you not provide an answer to my points and justify increasing the power of political parties in the way I explained it would do. Come on lets discuss the substantial points it is far more interesting than just making tabloid points.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
sorry barry, good try and all that.
what is actually wrong with every vote counting for something, instead of perpetuating the tired old old boys school of labour or tory winning power with around 35 % of the vote.?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Because that is not what it does, it merely encourages the growth of single issue and extreme parties, providing them with a chance of getting elected. It also means horse trading behind closed doors after an election to decide on what policies will be followed - power to politicians and profoundly undemocratic.
So what is wrong, instead, of the coalitions that are our major parties agreeing their own programmes for government before an election, to place these before the public to be voted on, so the public know what they are voting for, with a clear choice of rival programmes and knowing exactly what kind of Government they will get?
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
One other thing that PR does not allow is voting for the person you most feel will do the best job. Under the PR system adopted for the Euro elections the voter does not get a say in who fills the seats won in that manner. As Barry so rightly points out all power is handed to the party hierachy with the voter, who may well have voted for them because of knowledge of a local candidate, getting no say whatsoever. It might appear more democratic on paper but it is certainly more authoritarian in practice.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
Oh no I find myself in agreement with Barryw and Chris P. (wheres my tablets lol)
P.R. a slate of people is put forward by the party, who also decide the order of selection/election if they get that far.
Clear that very very minority persons are elected, but not because they are the most popular.
The only thing I won't agree with is our barry's view on changing again of boundaries, and doing away with some MP'S
I would only encourage that if it were truely a reflection of a fairfer system.
I suspect in reality(as has been pointed out by national papers in the past) the reason the conservatives want to reduce MP's is not anything to do with democracy, but is a;ll to do with not being able to win enough seats, so do away with a lioad to make it easier for them (most, if not all the seats i suspect will be labour held at the moment)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Are you therefore justifying some seats with an electorate of around 30,000 while others have over 70,000. Are you also defending a system that even with a majority of the vote, as much as 5% more than Labour the Conservatives only have the same number, or fewer seats in the Commons.
Surely you are not defending an inbuilt electoral bias towards one party, that is not what someone who truly believes in democracy would do Keith.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
You know that not to be correct
tell me barryw are they all conservative seats?