Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
Having been put through the Catholic system from birth, both cathiolic schools, and church till i was old enough to make my own mind up, it looks now like most of the main stream religions are struggling to get people through the turnstiles.
Apart from the bad publicity some churches got on the child abuses cases, are churchs these days doing enough to inspire us?
Recently a church spent thousands on making one of its rooms soundproof so families(children)can play whilst the parents pray.
I was about 3 years ago told by local activists in my church of England church told its church was heavin,
I went along a found quite a diffrent set up.
There was maybe just about 10 people present, that included my son and I and the Vicar who didnt take part ion the service until near the end.
Catholics and Church of England all are suffering, is this a good thing?
If more were encouraged to go to church would it realy make any diffrence to society?
Whats your thoughts?
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,020
Keith I see where you are coming from .What is religion how does one live by it .I attend church when I can .I have often said to our vicar and the previous one I cant always attend .They usually comment its how yoiu lead your life and give to others .I reckon I do that .There are those who go every Sunday and offer a limp handshake as you leave ,hardly speak to one at any other time .
I think some people turn to the church when they need comfort .
I prefer the peaceful kind of services .I cannot tolerate children running up and down.
A church should provide the kind of services that cater for everyone .I think here in River we now have that .If you want the Family service where its Happy singing etc then thats the one to attend .On the other hand if a more reflective mood is required the Evening service provides for this .
If church going is forced on one then it becomes a ritual .Regretably my sons and grandchildren have not followed my beliefs but they have not been forced into believing .
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
Keith
Last year the RC church reported an increase in the number of churchgoers due mainly to the influx of catholic poles.The church also for the first time in recent history overtook the C of E in attendance figures so obviously its not on such a steep decline as it once was.
All I can report from over here in Jersey is that I recently attended the 9.30am Mass and it was standing room only in the church not a spare pew or seat in sight, which was a surprise to all of 7 us!!
The church has a nice coffee shop which opens after the mass together with an excellent secondhand shop which helps towards the various charities it supports.
Religion is very much a personal decision and the only surefire certainty is that upon shedding ones mortal coil we will all find out whether or not there was any truth in an afterlife or a God.You pays your money and take your choices.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
No clear replies so far then, its just a choice thing like many things in life?
maybe like shopping?
Sue
I fully understand where your comiing from, is it realy sad your boys decided not to have a belief? you havn't explained any real benefits apart from going to the church and there are some nice services in the evenings.
That wouldn't inspire me to go, and i have been a few times to River church's
MAREK
Realise you have fairly strong beliefs so expected the views you expressed
although didn't expect the compitition bit.
At the end of the day neither the Catholics or C of E have real proof
we can only wait and see on all that.
A little story on this if i may;
When I got boy christened all those years ago
we had to attend 6 Fridays talking with other couples who were also getting
having there children christened in that church .
One of the couples asked the vicar, whats the difference between
catholics and C of E ? A fairly innocent question, the vicars wife pipped
up and said "we are right and they are not" I asked the vicar if he
shared that view and he said yes.
It couldnt have been a worse reply, and a wrong one, no one has the
full answers, these type of replies never help religion in general
needdless to say this vicar didnt last to long but still practices !
Further on the Catholic way of ,life turned my brother in a
humanists because of some of things he saw.
Whilst i would never go that far, it wasn't good what i witnesses
from SO CALLED christians,
I have no strong opinions on any faith or who's more right than others
All i ask is, how do the church's here in Dover re engage if it is that
important to do so?
Or maybe it isnt,
Any one else got any thoughts?
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Keef in the old days in catholic state schools in ireland when asked the difference between protestants and us catholics which/who was right...we were always told we were right...ours was the true religion. We were taught to mistrust anything of a protestant nature and indeed we did, and in some cases more than others as can be seen by our recent history.
So interesting what the Vicars wife said..and indeed the Vicar himself about them the C of E being the right religion. Without being offensive to the vicar and wife concerned, its a sort of a low-brow answer though I would think for this day and age. In fact all religions are probably all right, but just variations on right. No religion is actually the wrong religion as the worship of God appears to have value no matter which God you do indeed worship.
as for attracting churchgoers..thats a very difficult one. years ago we had the ghastly introduction of squeeky clean pop music into the attracting worshipper equation which was awful and put people off wholesale. That fake ' look we're all rock n rollers' music is really dire and any self respecting youth would see it for what it is...adult approved music..an attendance killer par excellence. The churches need to be part of the community more rather than just existing for their own faithful, that could be the road to increased worship.
It is amusing in a way though with regard to Dover...almost every civic ceremony Ive seen since Ive come to Dover ends up being a religious ceremony..odd when you think of it...almost none of the people attending these civic ceremonies go to church at all and havent a clue what any of the 'mumbo jumbo' is about.
Guest 688- Registered: 16 Jul 2009
- Posts: 268
When you look at the Celtic Church before It became centralised in doctrine by The Church of Rome It had a very different aspect.It was almost Eastern In It's Interpretation of the creed.There was a certain amount of belief In re-incarnation and the Idea of an on going journey through many different lives/plains of being.Even In the early Church their were many differing voices all with a different take on what comes after.It was not until the creed was formalised at the convention of Nicea that a a unified voice began to be the norm.Through out history there have been many different readings of what to expect,even In the Christian tradition e.g.Arianism and the Cathars.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
So realy its good for some
but overall it aint goint going to make a lot of diffrence?
any other views
Guest 688- Registered: 16 Jul 2009
- Posts: 268
What really frightens me about modern society, Is not the Impact of Religion, but the erosion of our Instinct of Humanity by rampant consumerism under the guise secularisation.If we carry on this way we will "know the cost of everything and the value of nothing".
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
but does religion do owt to change that?
I do agree with you john
Guest 688- Registered: 16 Jul 2009
- Posts: 268
I suppose at It's very core Is the desire for hope.It Is one of the Human races most misunderstood and yet powerful aspirations,their are very few In the affluent West who know now what It Is to be truly with out hope,but In the Third World that Is a different matter.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i thought that the roman catholic and church of england faiths were very closely related.
the two main differences being over divorce and whether the father is allowed any "hows your father".
many public figures swap over when they take umbrage over an issue.
John, I've never heard such drivel: "the erosion of our Instinct of Humanity by rampant consumerism under the guise secularisation". This is utter nonsense and somewhat insulting to us secular atheist types. You're making a sweeping generalisation that if you are not of a religion then you are stone-cold dead inside, consumed by materialistic hollowness. I don't know if you yourself are religious but you demonstrate the very arrogant view of someone who is, looking down on us "lost souls" who don't believe a word of that ancient rubbish.
Religion is the single most harmful thing in any society and has done far more damage to the world than any binge drinkers, consumerism, drug abuse, hoodies, rapists, murderers, TV addicts, or anything else. You may argue that churches offer some community-based comfort zone but I argue that they offer nothing more than mass mind-control under the guise of their own certainty. I much prefer the uncertainty and doubt of atheism. It's very liberating.
Keith, you say "Catholics and Church of England all are suffering, is this a good thing?". I always thought the very core value of Catholicism is to cause suffering and guilt on the followers. Isn't it supposed to make followers righteous or free of sin or something?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
a bit strong there rick, should not all beliefs be respected?
drivel!!
i doubt whether religion is that harmful, just a few nutters that choose to read what they want in any holy book.
most religious people i have known have been ok people.
i have no idea whether there is an afterlife, a bit like yourself really.
makes it all very interesting though.
Sorry, I can not under any circumstances bring myself to respect any belief system. The one thing that they all have in common is their own certainty. I won't respect something that arrogant. Religions attract rather a lot of crackpots, suicide bombers, murderous beheadings, war, population control through guilt, and the concept of worship (the very worst concept of all). They impose unrealistic rules on people, force belief in wonderfully daft ideas with no evidence (I guess that defines faith) and show zero respect for science, consumerism, or secular atheism. And you say we should respect this? No thanks.
I know religious individuals myself and they are, overall, pretty nice people. But I can't help thinking they would still be nice people if they were atheists. And come on, we all know it isn't "just a few nutters" that exist on the fringes of religions. The nutters are abundant, rooted into the very core of many of the faith systems, whether they are suicide bombers, Catholic child perverts, or Christian end-times fanatics. Religion is a form of modern madness.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
hardly modern madness, jews and buddhists have been around about 6000 years.
many civilisations have had their stone idols.
the romans and greeks are the most famous for their collections of gods, they brought civilisation in their times.
surely any belief, including atheism, is worthy of respect.?
i agree about the obsession with certainties, i find it rather depressing that people of certain faiths feel so superior in this way.
the jehovahs witnesses internally call their belief "the truth"!!!
personally i find catholicism very irritating, but have to admit that they are the only people that run hospices for all, irrespective of religion, i do not know of any other religious or non religious group that goes that far.
Guest 688- Registered: 16 Jul 2009
- Posts: 268
Rick,what you say may be true In your world view,but It Is your world view ,I neither advocate nor deride what other people believe, It Is their choice whatever the structure of their lives take.You talk about proof of Faith or belief,I have seen many things that I can not explain and I do not think science could either(as we know science Is a methodology not a Religion).And If you think that I am some puritanical evangelical nut,you have got me oh so wrong my friend.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
Rick/John/Howard
All very interesting posts, Howard the catholics also have major diffrences with Cof E on contraception, and abortion.
But that said I'm not saying religion is right or wrong.
From the threads so far it appears its all about choice, and no one has been that convincing that it changes much in everyday life.
iN SUPPORT of religions I have to say the so called nutters turn up everywhere,
we have seen them in unons where the extremists will always turn up in disputes.
The Koran also although recognises the bible, when i more closely questioned people who were active believers in the Koran, they said the bible is just another book, but the Koran is the main book
As there are so many unanswered questions I don't suppose this debate will ever go away.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
chill out and become a druid,pease man.
Rick, I think you protest too much........what happened, lad? Tell Bern.
We all have the right to our inner life, and that sometimes includes a faith. We all have faith in something, sometimes that something is a religion. It is rarely the faith that causes the trouble, it is usually the people who manipulate that faith for their own ends and their own gratification, political or otherwise, who cause the trouble. When a society loses faith in anything or something it crumbles. The hoodies and crack addicts referred to in other posts proliferate in a faithless society because the social constraints are loosened - often by the "PC brigade" that are often lampooned on this site, people whose own faith in social work ethics has failed them and failed the products of the society they have created. Faith has a place, and religions also, when not manipulated by inappropriate people.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
bern
In part you are correct, i'm not sure if you include me in your thoughts on the PC brigade?(as barryw has in the past misunderstood me and said i'm part of the PC brigade, far from the truth)
but back to th post, theres still not been any convincing posts that religion changes owt, not diffrent to people looking up(wrongly in my eyes) to famous footballers etc, the only diffrence is within religions you get the fanatics.
Interesting debate though