One thousand one hundred and eighty five last Thursday!
- Captain Haddock
- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,971
27 November 2021 15:51373319ray hutstone wrote:If we (the UK) offered a safe means of asylum application (not necessarily a lenient one) then the business model of the people traffickers would cease to exist overnight.
82.4 million people worldwide were forcibly displaced at the end of 2020 as a result of persecution, conflict, violence, human rights violations or events seriously disturbing public order
How many do you want Ray?
Chose a number between zero and 82.4 million!
(I'm going for zero)
As for 'Had it been a White Caucasian incident.... the reactions would be different'.
Doubt it, though 46 Europeans (including kiddies - sheds crocodile tear at the loss of the innocents) did get burnt to death the other day. See bottom of page 5 in most newspapers.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59383852
Personally I'd rather drown than be burnt to death but I don't suppose we normally get a choice.
The difference with the Channel drowning is we can all 'emote' about it, enjoying wallowing in non existent guilt and beating ourselves up.
If only we hadn't 'interfered' in the middle east
It's all because of colonialism
What would Jesus do?
Remember that MP hacked to death in Southend a few weeks ago by yet another graduate of Prevent, the United Kingdom's voluntary programme for those thought to be at risk of radicalisation?
The media frenzy ends up being about censoring Twitter and Facebook rather than the risk from mad Mohammedans getting all stabby yet again.
Any of you remember the MP's name? (No Googling!)
Nope. Nobody I spoke to on the day of his funeral could either.
Meanwhile statues to the Blessed Saint Jo Cox (though her husband turned out to be a bit of a rum-un) and worry about the 'incredible growth' of the far-right!
The media are playing your emotions like the fools you are.
Personally I think it was with Lady Di and Blair's tribute that we all went 'soft'."We are living in very strange times, and they are likely to get a lot stranger before we bottom out"
Dr. Hunter S Thompson - 27 November 2021 16:13373320Button wrote:How so?
Rhetorical question? The simplest short term solution, which could be implemented virtually overnight, is to station immigration officials on French soil with the authority to make initial asylum acceptability assessments. The French are more than willing to allow this. In the longer term, humanitarian visas.
The link below might help.
I include it also for our fishy friend's benefit. I'm waiting for his mate, Watty, to rush to lambast him for odious references to blessed Saint Jo Cox and her rum 'un husband. I can't help wondering is such a clearly twisted and sad individual might have been badly bullied at school...?
Anyway, here's a chap with (a) some human dignity and (b) a brain.
alexiatrade likes this - Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,032
27 November 2021 16:18373321I didn't intend my 'how so' to be a rhetorical question, I'm just not seeing why a UK asylum assessment facility abroad should eradicate cross-channel people smugglers.Jan Higgins likes this(Not my real name.) - Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,818
27 November 2021 16:47373322Button wrote:I didn't intend my 'how so' to be a rhetorical question, I'm just not seeing why a UK asylum assessment facility abroad should eradicate cross-channel people smugglers.
Exactly those refused entry would more than likely still try to come here, it is just that there might be fewer people trying to cross in this dangerous way.Reginald Barrington likes this-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
------------------------------------------------------------------- - 27 November 2021 17:04373323My Lords, I will first address the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Desai, which I thought were very positive. The basis of our skills-based immigration system is that, if people have the skills to come here, we will welcome them. Immigration has contributed to our economy. We are a nation of immigrants. He is and I am. I presume that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, counts herself an immigrant. I am not quite sure about the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, who is from Northern Ireland, but the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, does as well. A good proportion of the people speaking in this debate are immigrants, as are half the Cabinet. thread #102
I would like to thank the Rt. Honorable ray hutstone (joke!!) for such an informative thread on#102..
Well worth a read by everyone....as apposed to the fear and hysterics bought about by Bob Frost...... - 27 November 2021 19:40373332Button wrote:I didn't intend my 'how so' to be a rhetorical question, I'm just not seeing why a UK asylum assessment facility abroad should eradicate cross-channel people smugglers.
It's not like you to be obtuse, Button, but I'm struggling to see how I can explain it more effectively. There are no safe routes for these people to get to the UK. Instead they rely on the people smugglers, the other 'illegal' routes (stowing away on lorries etc) having been prevented by increased security.
Do you really think they would take such a perilous risk if there were an alternative? Even after Thursday's hideous events, they continue to endanger their lives to get an asylum hearing.
Were that to be permissible in France, there would be no business model for the people traffickers. - Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,032
27 November 2021 21:19373334Well, it's been said before! But I genuinely still don't get your repeated assertion. As per Jan Higgins' post, why would those refused asylum by the UK (and those not seeking asylum, eg. because of a conviction of an impending refusal) not still try to enter the country illegally?Captain Haddock likes this(Not my real name.) - Reginald Barrington
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,235
27 November 2021 21:30373335Button wrote:Well, it's been said before! But I genuinely still don't get your repeated assertion. As per Jan Higgins' post, why would those refused asylum by the UK (and those not seeking asylum, eg. because of a conviction of an impending refusal) not still try to enter the country illegally?
They would and they would be less likely to call the emergency taxi service half way across, resulting in more tragic events like those of last week.
I think it would also be seen as a siren call for more to come, what the solution is I don't know but I don't believe this idea would achieve very much in the long term.Arte et Marte - 28 November 2021 08:33373337Button wrote:Well, it's been said before! But I genuinely still don't get your repeated assertion. As per Jan Higgins' post, why would those refused asylum by the UK (and those not seeking asylum, eg. because of a conviction of an impending refusal) not still try to enter the country illegally?
I don't know the figures for recidivist claimants, do you? I'm sure that the vast majority of those trying this route now are either first timers or those who have failed in earlier attempts, not because their claims have been rejected, but because they simply didn't make it to the other side.
As we know from HMG figures, the majority of claimants who do eventually (a) get here and (b) get processed are succesful either at the first attempt or on appeal. - Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,032
28 November 2021 09:05373338Nope, I don't know the figures for recidivist claimants. Neither do I know the numbers for those not intending to submit an asylum claim in the first place. How could anyone - in a way it would be like trying to quantify the level of undetected crime? I'm just exploring whether people smugglers are ever going to run out of customers and so far I remain unconvinced that they will.Jan Higgins likes this(Not my real name.) - Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,818
28 November 2021 09:32373339People smugglers, drug sellers, fences in fact those who trade in almost any illegal activity will always be there as long as there is a buyer in some form or another.-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
------------------------------------------------------------------- - Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,032
28 November 2021 11:16373343Jan Higgins wrote:People smugglers, drug sellers, fences in fact those who trade in almost any illegal activity will always be there as long as there is a buyer in some form or another.
Indeed. Hythe and Romney Marsh beaches used to be that popular for landfall years ago that one wonders why they didn't have a Competent Harbour Authority to regulate traffic. I recall drug runners, illegal immigrants waiting for a train to London at the RH&D station, Old Holborn packets floating in the Channel, occasional attendance by various murky military (no offence meant!) et al. Mainly I remember the cold - oh and rats!(Not my real name.) - 28 November 2021 11:38373345Button wrote:Nope, I don't know the figures for recidivist claimants. Neither do I know the numbers for those not intending to submit an asylum claim in the first place. How could anyone - in a way it would be like trying to quantify the level of undetected crime? I'm just exploring whether people smugglers are ever going to run out of customers and so far I remain unconvinced that they will.
Asylum seekers are not criminals. - Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,818
28 November 2021 11:54373346ray hutstone wrote:Asylum seekers are not criminals.
Maybe not the majority but if I remember correctly I am sure some of the convicted terrorists were either migrants or asylum seekers in the past.
Some are highly skilled and much needed people and some are the dregs of humanity just the same as any group of people whether of foreign origin or home bred.-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
------------------------------------------------------------------- - Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,032
28 November 2021 12:08373347ray hutstone wrote:Asylum seekers are not criminals.
Er, and? (Sorry if I'm being obtuse again!)(Not my real name.) - 28 November 2021 13:22373348Button wrote:Er, and? (Sorry if I'm being obtuse again!)
Indeed. Hythe and Romney Marsh beaches used to be that popular for landfall years ago that one wonders why they didn't have a Competent Harbour Authority to regulate traffic. I recall drug runners, illegal immigrants waiting for a train to London at the RH&D station, Old Holborn packets floating in the Channel, occasional attendance by various murky military (no offence meant!) et al. Mainly I remember the cold - oh and rats!
I'm not aware of the recent wave of asylum seekers acting in this way.alexiatrade likes this - 28 November 2021 14:56373351All is never what it seems...
These poor people are pawns in a game of fear which is stirred up in a "normal" country.
This is a lethal trade in human hope.
https://odysee.com/@deepstatedocs:d/jfk2911:8
The above is interesting viewing during the wintertime...
Thank you. - Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,032
28 November 2021 15:17373352ray hutstone wrote:I'm not aware of the recent wave of asylum seekers acting in this way.
I'm baffled; I thought your point was precisely that (non-criminal) asylum seekers are forced to turn up unannounced on beaches, along with any recidivist claimants(?) and other foreign nationals there may be?
As for Romney Marsh, cf. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/migrants-arrive-dungeness-dinghy-kent-channel-dover-b946562.html.(Not my real name.) - 28 November 2021 16:56373354Button wrote:I'm baffled; I thought your point was precisely that (non-criminal) asylum seekers are forced to turn up unannounced on beaches, along with any recidivist claimants(?) and other foreign nationals there may be?
As for Romney Marsh, cf. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/migrants-arrive-dungeness-dinghy-kent-channel-dover-b946562.html.
In that case, we're both baffled, Button. I am of the view that asylum seekers, who are indeed not criminals, (unless you can show me law that proves otherwise), have been compelled to take to small boats to get here. I tried to explain why the absence of other means of reaching the UK have necessitated this. I've also tried to explain that recidivist numbers (i.e those who have been deported following a previously failed application) are low. Other foreign nationals? Who do you mean?
As for Romney Marsh, well of course some will end up there. It's the nature of the wind and the tides. There hasn't been a harbour authority along the marsh, as far as I know, since the Dr Syn days. Everything has either been reclaimed or silted up. It's not as extensive but it's an area broadly comparable with the coast of Northern France.
Were you being ironic? Do current asylum seekers come festooned with packs of contraband Old Holborn in the hope of making a swift euro or two to top up their benefits (£5.70 per week) when they get processed? Do they really sit at the Dungeness RHDR station hoping to make a fast get away before the rozzers show up?
This all getting too surreal for me. I don't think I can add anything else. - Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,032
28 November 2021 17:37373355No, I wasn't being ironic (other than about a CHA for the marsh!); I was replying to Jan Higgins' post (which covered smuggling in general) by recounting events I was involved in, back in the 1980s. And yes, there were on one occasion migrants waiting at Hythe RH&D station for a train to London.
I used the term 'other foreign nationals' to cover those migrants wishing simply to live here without asylum; it was yourself who introduced 'recidivist claimants' - I hadn't mentioned the legal status of asylum seekers. I remain none the wiser as to how people smugglers can easily be put out of business (my basic point of enquiry), nor why you said you were unaware of migrants turning up on beaches (at least, that's what I thought you were saying).
I agree that we'd better leave it there.(Not my real name.)