22 October 2009
22:2731242Being able to work or do business without restriction anywhere in Europe is quite a good benefit.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
22 October 2009
22:5331244this is applicable to non members of the eu too.
22 October 2009
23:5231249Is it?
As a British citizen I have a legal right to work in (or sell goods to) any EU country.
I don't have a legal right to work in (or sell goods to) every non EU country.
Guest 691- Registered: 24 Oct 2009
- Posts: 45
24 October 2009
20:1031419I posted this in 2008 after Ireland first voted no. It's still pertinent now:
The irony of it all
Monday, June 16, 2008 at 5:47pm
I find a tragic irony in the Eurosceptic argument for a "No" vote on the Lisbon Treaty. Finally we are presented with a document that streamlines this creaking organisation, guarantees nationstate soverignty, introduces measures to force financial accountability, transfers decision making powers from the unlecected Commission to the elected Parliament AND on top of that gives the UK unprecedented opt outs and vetos YET the Eurosceptics just want to give the EU a kicking.
It's pathetic.
It reminds me of the classic "socialist debate" - revolution versus reform. Is it worth taking part in the electoral process and trying to make the society we want from within the estabishment, or is it better to overthrow the ruling classes in a revolution?
The Eurosceptics have guaranteed another ten years at least of ineffective operation of the EU in favour of a revolution (withdrawal) that will never happen, rather than reform it from within.
Shame on them. We know who to blame when we hear of the next bendy banana fiasco and I'll gve you a clue - it ain't those that voted YES in Ireland.
"In this world there are 10 sorts of people - those that understand binary and those that don't."
Guest 672- Registered: 3 Jun 2008
- Posts: 2,119
24 October 2009
20:1831421Welcome back Matt. Go for it kiddo.
grass grows by the inches but dies by the feet.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
25 October 2009
12:2131480matthew,nice to see someone with true facts on here.much to some peoples annoyance.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
25 October 2009
13:1931489i have read that argument about changing things from within at the EU before.
seems to be a rather arrogant assumption that we can alter anything that affects 27 countries.
Guest 691- Registered: 24 Oct 2009
- Posts: 45
25 October 2009
13:5331491What's arrogant about it? The new Lisbon Treaty transfers powers from the unelected Commission to the elected Parliament. This means that the decisions are being made and influenced by people YOU voted for. It's not an assumption, it's a fact!
Are you really likely to "alter things" better from outside? Seems to me rather arrogant to suggest we'd do better if we just looked after ourselves and didn't work closely on common issues.
BTW, the Lisbon Treaty was negotiated by all 27 countries. The current rulebook was designed by, intended for and agreed to by only 20. We can't carry in like that, especially when the newer countires are more in line with a British view of how the EU should be.
"In this world there are 10 sorts of people - those that understand binary and those that don't."
25 October 2009
14:3131498Why change something so deeply flawed and undemocratic? Why not just abandon it with dignity?
Guest 691- Registered: 24 Oct 2009
- Posts: 45
25 October 2009
15:1631504I don't accept that it's flawed and I've already address the point about increasing democracy.
We'd be shooting ourselves in the foot if we attempted withdrawal. How could that serve in any way to <b>increase<\b> our influence over the other member states? There are just some issues that are simply bigger than one country.
Norway's trade with the EU is affected by EU policy, but Norway have no affect on EU policy. How is that useful to them?
"In this world there are 10 sorts of people - those that understand binary and those that don't."
Guest 691- Registered: 24 Oct 2009
- Posts: 45
25 October 2009
15:1631505And more importantly, how do I embolden text!?
"In this world there are 10 sorts of people - those that understand binary and those that don't."
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
25 October 2009
15:4331506Jersey is not a member of the EU but the States are constantly at loggerheads with the EU over banking regulations and taxation. My son who is 21 yrs pays 2% tax on his earnings which means he keeps more of his earned income.It is an great incentive to work.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
25 October 2009
16:1431509governments may have negotiated the lisbon treaty.
only 3 offered their people a chance to decide on it, look what happened there.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
25 October 2009
16:4431513howard/barryw,have you obtaind a copy of the lisbon treaty,and have you read and understood its contents.26 countrys have signed it with the check republic dithering on the fence,the last time i heard.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
25 October 2009
17:2631515let us have your view on it brian.
i have only glossed through it, some of the points to note though.
new powers for the commission, new powers for the parliaments and new powers for the court of justice that will override the courts of the member states.
no one knows what sort of voting weight we will get, this will be decided between 2014 and 2017.
removal of many national vetoes.
26 countries have not signed it, their governments have.
only ireland has agreed it, the others either rejected it or were not asked by their governments.
25 October 2009
17:5831516A good point well made, Howard.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
25 October 2009
20:0831531same differance howard.the goverment/s has signed on our behalf.
Guest 691- Registered: 24 Oct 2009
- Posts: 45
26 October 2009
17:1731581Just to get the facts straight, only Ireland (narrowly) rejected the Lisbon Treaty in a referendum, but then accepted it in a subsequent one. I'm not crazy about that, but it's happened now and I welcome the change of heart.
I find it rather odd that some people want a referendum on something as dry and incomprehensible as this. No doubt I'll be accused of calling the public stupid, but I simply cannot believe that the average bod on the street knows what the Treaty is about. Even Bazza and I rely on "getting the gist" from people we trust in our parties. What people do "know" about it is just the half truths (which both sides spread).
Presumeably the question in a referendum would be "Should the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland ratify their committment to the articles in the Lisbon Treaty? YES or NO" or something to that effect. But be honest, how many people would answer this question? Most would choose to answer "Do you like the EU, given the scare stories you hear?" or perhaps "Should we become an EU superstate and stick two fingers up at The Queen?" etc etc
"In this world there are 10 sorts of people - those that understand binary and those that don't."
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
26 October 2009
17:5431596Matthew, some facts about this Treaty are undisputable.
1/ It is 97% identical to the Constitution that was rejected by at least 2 countries. And totally identical in its mainstream policies. We were promised a referendum by Labour and Lib dems on this in the 2005 General Election and the Government have used the deception of calling it a Treaty to rat on this pledge.
2/ The 'rewording' was deliberately made obscure, complicated and difficult to understand in order cloud the whole thing. Typical EU tactic.
3/ The Treaty reduces, almost eliminates national vetoes and eliminates the need for further treaties in additional power transfers to the EU.
4/ It provides for a permanent President of the European Council who will be known as the President of Europe, a key postitioning in the development of an EU superstate.
5/ It provides for a Foreign Minister for Europe to whom the Foreign policies of individual members states must defer. This places at risk the UK seat on the UN Security Council. Future developments are likley to be EU Embassies replacing national ones as a logical development.
It also creates greater powers over our criminal law and just about every other aspect of our lives.
The above are just off the top of my head. Overall the impact will be all the machinery for a further progressive reducction in the powers of elected Governments and placing more power in the hands of the EU Commission and the EU Parliament.
The bottom line is that I detest big and intrusive Government and that is why I am against all this.
I dont need to know any more than that to be totally opposed to the whole project and that is all anyone needs to know.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
26 October 2009
18:0231601barryw,nothing new there then.cant wait untill they bring the euro in.
as for a voting yes/no,i cant see the conservatives giving us one either,i havent trusted a tory since 1969 and i dont intend to either,even if he offers me a million quid a day to.
