Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
26 October 2009
18:0631605Brian - if its not ratified by the time of the election there will be a vote and we will kill this damn thing (with no 're-vote' if the EU get the 'wrong' answer).
If it is ratified, then on the same day the Czech President signs, William Hague will announce what the policy will be. The whole thing will then be a different ball game and a referendum on the same question would not be relevant. All we know for now is that the matter 'will not be left there'.
If you want the Euro then I suggest going and living on the Continent, its the only way you will get it Brian. We are not daft enough to sign up to it.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
26 October 2009
18:0931607brian
what did you think of the lisbon treaty?
was it a good read?
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
26 October 2009
18:1131608barryw,it could be here sooner than you think with or without the queens head.
its allso common knoleage that the toryies do u-turns more often than a drunk driver.
Guest 691- Registered: 24 Oct 2009
- Posts: 45
26 October 2009
18:1131609Bary - I can never tell whether you are being playful or if you're really that deluded.
Point 1 - Read my original post regards referendum, the question etc..
Point 2 - all laws and treaties are in legal speak, and this is not the reserve of the EU. It's not an indesputible fact that you claim, it's an accusation with no evidence.
Point 3 - true, but the UK has many opt-outs so vetos are largely unnecessary for us.
Point 4 - Good try Barry! You claim it's a fact. Any 6th former could tell you the difference between the first bit (that there will be a post created called "President") is a fact, but that the second bit ("a key postitioning in the development of an EU superstate") is your opinion, and it's unsubstatiated nonsense. The Treaty makes the President's powers clear, and it's sod all to do with being a super state! We already have an EU Presidnet that rotates every 6 months. The new President will have vitually identical powers.
Point 5 - Half true, much like your scaremongering over the President.
Finally, thanks for validating my point regards the Eurosceptic's real agenda. Nowt to do with Lisbon, everything to do with a withdrawal.
No doubt that rejecting Lisbon is NOT the first step to withdrawal. It IS a way of guranteeing inferior governance at EU level for the next 10 years at least.
"In this world there are 10 sorts of people - those that understand binary and those that don't."
Guest 691- Registered: 24 Oct 2009
- Posts: 45
26 October 2009
18:1631613Regards the Euro, I'm yet to be convinced that the benefits outweigh the bad points.
"In this world there are 10 sorts of people - those that understand binary and those that don't."
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
26 October 2009
18:1731614matthew,
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
26 October 2009
18:1831616with regard to the currency, all the people i know in the financial sector say that our economic cycle would not fit in with it.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
26 October 2009
19:2631628Matthew.
We have now for decades been lied to and decieved by those pushing the whole European project going right back to Ted Heath. We were clearly told in 1975 when the Labour referendum to stay in was held that it was all about a free trade area and nothing else. It was lies all along and we know they had a lot more in mind even then. I was young and foolish enough to believe then and campaigned for a Yes vote. I deeply regret that now.
Yes, Matthew, legal speak indeed, but it has been admitted by one Giscard D'estang himself, that the re-worded Treaty was deliberately made more difficult to understand to obscure the intent. Strange, how foreign leaders are more frank about what the EU is up to than most of our own politicians.
Opt outs are not good enough, many are time limited anyway. The Treaty allows for the EU to change even that without further Treaty agreements making these utterly worthless. The EU will find a way around anything like this if they want to. Nothing, certainly not we the unwashed, must be allowed to stand in the way of the Euro-masters.
You are being naive to actually believe that the EU President will not evolve into the President of a Superstate. The treaty puts everything into place ready for a steady and coninued grab of what power is left to national governments.
You may be 'on-side' with it and dont mind all that but I dont like to be taken as a fool by the Eurofanatics and they must not be allowed to get away with it.
I make no bones about my hopes that we will get out of this shambles all together. Make no mistake, if the EU carries on the way it is this will happen. This Treaty makes the exit of the UK more certain.
The best way forward for the EU would be to go in entirely the opposite direction to this Treaty. Repatriate powers back to national governments and reduce the central power of the EU, returning to a trading block only. I dont expect such a change, it will never happen as it is so against all what the EU has so far been about.
This treaty is only needed because they want to take on more and more responsibilities centrally, interfering more and more.
We must have no part of a Soviet style EU of that kind.
Guest 691- Registered: 24 Oct 2009
- Posts: 45
26 October 2009
20:0431635You call it naivity, but I'm reasonabley consistent. I just don't do conspiracy theories. Full stop. I've never heard of the chap that you indirectly quote, but I can't believe you've quoted him accurately. If you have, then more needs to be said about this. Why hadn't I heard about this before? He sounds like a total moron.
I think you have a problem with the "President" for the same reason you disliked the word "Constitution". Sure, countries and states have presidents and constitutions, but so do student societies, guilds and golf clubs! Doesn't mean that they're paving the way to world domination! I repeat, we ALREADY HAVE a President of the EU anyway.
Interesting that you talk about about the EU in a them and us sort of way. For better or worse, we are IN the EU and we are as much an "EU master" as Poland or Luxembourg. There isn't some obsure clutch of men with Franco-German sounding names based in Brussels, poking plastic men around a map of Great Britain.
"We must have no part of a Soviet style EU of that kind." - Finally we agree! So you wholeheartedly welcome a document that expressly rules this out!? The new member states worked closely with the UK to draft a document like this. Do you really think that Latvia or Slovenia want a Soviet style EU after gaining the independence they cherish?
"In this world there are 10 sorts of people - those that understand binary and those that don't."
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
27 October 2009
00:2831675I dont do conspiracy theories either, Matt - what I have said is a matter of record.
I am very amused to see that you have not heard of a very distinguished former President of France, the man who drafted the Constitution/Treaty. You may be right that he is a total moron, perhaps that is what goes with the eurofanatic territory!!!!! Interesting that you are repeating Labour's spin about what the Treaty means without finding out enough about it yourself to even find out who put the whole thing together.... His name full Valerie Giscard'Destang in case it ring a bell now.
You really are injected by Labour's spin machine. The revolving presidency may be inefficient but at least it devalues the role of 'president' simply because it is revolving every 6 months. A permanent president is a totally different matter and is clearly one of the pre-requisits towards the superstate.
The EU is all about centralised power and the Treaty paves the way for more of that. It is also based on a nannying socialistic model of central interference and control that is unsustainable and goes against the principals of personal responsibility and freedom. It represents the opposite to the type of society I want, less Government and more personal responsibility.
Yes, I do not see myself in any way European, I am British and the EU is an organisation that is a thing apart. I campaigned for a free trade oragnisation in 1975 not the monster that is the EU. The British people were promised a referendum on this Constitution/Treaty and have been betrayed by the Labour Government. I feel in no way a part of the EU and this betrayal is increasing the anti EU resentment in this country as a whole. Eventually this resentment will increase to a level that we will be out of it all together, the EU is on a course of self-destruction by its high handed anti-democratic methods.
Guest 691- Registered: 24 Oct 2009
- Posts: 45
27 October 2009
00:4131677I wasn't aware that I was being injected with spin, I was of the impression that I'd discussed it at length with friends that work in the European Parliament and followed the media debate through TV, blogs and websites since about 2004.
But maybe you're right.
I could have sworn that I'd spoken to Gwyn about it, and listened to Lembit Opik's views when I met him in 2007. I thought I'd read portions of it and multiple summaries, and I'm pretty sure I followed the debate over a referendum in Ireland, also listened to at least 6 party interpretations during the recent Euro elections.
Perhaos I just dreamt it. No, I did just inject myself with Labour spin. How silly of me.
Regards the French guy, I'm delighted that I was able to amuse you, but I don't memorise lists of former leaders of European Countries. A little embarrassing to not know the authors name I suppose, but then again I do not know the names of ANYONE that draft UK laws.
"In this world there are 10 sorts of people - those that understand binary and those that don't."
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
27 October 2009
00:5431681Labour spin, Europhile spin - so what matthew. Seeing that we have always been lied to about the Euro project nothing is new there.
No-one drafting UK laws is as famous as Giscard d'Estang, its not as if there have been vast numbers of French Presidents with their 7 year periods of office. He was before Mitterand incidentally, not really so long ago.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
27 October 2009
17:3631749barryw,so if every one is lying who is telling the truth.certanly not the eurosceptics.can i sugest an 18 month stay in brussels parliment on a fact finding tour.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
27 October 2009
18:2131757Not everyone Brian - you cant expect the truth from the pro-EU camp, we have not the full truth about the Euro project from them yet and I see no reason think think that will change.
27 October 2009
18:4231760Howard- the Financial Times newspaper is always calling for the UK to join.
As long as we join at the right exchange rate I would like it.
It would be very good if everyone travelling to Europe for business or pleasure didn't have to change their money every time from Pounds to Euros. The banks make a killing out of us all because of it.
27 October 2009
18:4531761BarryW- with respect, just because people disagree with you, it does not make them liars.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
27 October 2009
22:2231775Yes James but in this case it is accurate to say that we have been lied to and decieved over the European project. Its advocates will stop at nothing, including showing a contempt for democracy, to get their way. They know that if honest they would never have got as far as they have.
As far as the Euro is concerned this is a much more important matter than mere currency exchange. Membership of the Euro would be crippling our economy even more than now if we were in it. Having the pound means that the exchange rate can take some of the economic strain.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
28 October 2009
08:5131792barryw,not nessasary it would make a level playing field and cuts the need for an exchange rate thats cripperling the pound at the moment.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
28 October 2009
08:5631794BARRYW
Interesting, barryw is the expert on this and other matters, and others are liars!!
I like to listen to all sides and make my own mind up
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
28 October 2009
08:5731796like wise.
