Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
8 November 2009
08:3832633Roger
Your own party members are still asking for a referendum even though the Lisbon Treaty has been ratified..why? I hear you ask. Well for two reasons firstly the last person to consult the great British public over their feelings towards the EU was Harold Wilson who called for a referendum after the Uk had joined.He wanted to be in a position of strength when approaching the old EEC with the publics backing.
The same is true about today,Cameron really needs to either put to bed his Eurosceptics once and for all by an overwhelming vote in favour of the Lisbon Treaty or go back to Brussels with a strong No vote.These are the thoughts of Bill Cash and co.So there is a valid point to hold a referendum even though the treaty has been ratified and a precendent was set by the Labour Party and Harold Wilson.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
8 November 2009
09:0332634Keith - no-one looks worse than Brown, he is the real villain here and everyone knows it.
Marek - you refer to the Eurosceptics as if they are something apart. DC is himself a firm Eurosceptic, as am I. There are some, very few who want a harder line and that is very natural and they are balanced by a very few who want the status quo. DC has the full and open support of the vast bulk of the Conservative Party and this has been shown in polling, just look at that I posted. His tactics in dealing with the EU monster if/when he wins the election are a matter for him.
It is all about tactics and getting the result we want.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
8 November 2009
09:3532635BARRYW
If we want results don't leave it to DC then, hes now being seen as a maverick and ditherer, and promising things he never had any intention of doing
Labour have got things wrong, but i nevrer exprected the tories to throw the election away in the manner they have, they look now like they dont want to win.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
8 November 2009
10:4332641You really should try to relate what you ay to what is actually happening in the real world Keith. It seems all you can do is make daft assertions without any evidence.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
8 November 2009
17:2232654so would dc new version,as far as many people are concernd a referendum of any sort would be a waste of time and money.as far as i can see you got two [2] options 1,the goverment works closely within europe to its own advantage,or [2]drag there feet kicking and screaming to anyone who listens,option 2 is not acceptable.
Guest 691- Registered: 24 Oct 2009
- Posts: 45
9 November 2009
01:2532682Of course, by Rick's definition, The Rotary Club must be a country too (it has a President and a Constitution). And the WI. Now that would be interesting!
Sorry for the two liner, but this thread is just too ridiculous to take seriously.
The whole point is to become a single country called Europe!? Since when? I must have misse that treaty. Was it before or after Lisbon, which codifies the exact opposite?
"In this world there are 10 sorts of people - those that understand binary and those that don't."
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
9 November 2009
07:3332685matthew,you are right there,a lot of clubs and organizations have a constitution along with the majour political parties so does that make them a country to,and will they put that to a referendum i wonder.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
9 November 2009
08:1332689A Constitution, President, Foreign Secretary, an embryo Armed Forces, a justice system that overrides domestic justice systems, law making powers that over-rides domestic law making.... That is what makes a country called Europe, a Rotary does not have all of that.
Matthew - pro-EU advocates have always trivialised these issues only for the sceptic to be proven right by events. Time after time as this monster has developed.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
9 November 2009
17:3532720barryw,there we go again scaremongering again.lets be fair on this issue, at the moment no president/foreign secatry only the armed forces working together under a multi national force in afgan/iraq.it looks like that you are trying to kill it off before it evan starts.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
9 November 2009
18:3732730Brian - no scaremongering. Face the facts, the EU is steadily driving towards its Federal ambitions. It has done so steadily since 1973 and at every step they deny the next step will be taken. They set out to decieve people all the way. And tghere are still some, a dwindering few, who allow themselves to be taken in by them. Open your eyes.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,698
9 November 2009
22:4532739With regard to the EU President we already have one (the Swedish Prime Minister), the difference that the Lisbon Treaty makes is that it changes the terms of the presidency from a rotating 6 month appointment to a longer term appointment. Now the right/left eurosceptics will argue that this is a stepping stone on the road to a federal super state, the europhiles will say that this gives stability and direction rather than the current chopping and changing.
The Lisbon Treaty is indeed very similar to the constitution proposed by Valéry Giscard d'Estaing amongst others, though it has been watered down to accommodate concerns from the non federalists. Yes the EU can set laws that override domestic law making, oh but hey they can do that now on a whole range of subjects covered by qualified majority voting. There is already significant co-operation between justice systems across the EU (police share intelligence, assist each other on cross border warrants, EU arrest warrants already exist etc.) and our armed forces participate in the EU rapid reaction force and other pan-european initiatives. The Lisbon Treaty does nothing to alter this.
I am an avowed europhile, though I am opposed to any further moves towards a federal states of europe. I believe that our future is inexorably entwined with our sister countries in the EU and that we absolutely must take out place in this euro club and make it in our image rather than that of the French or Germans which is the road we are currently on. To take ourselves out of this club will lead to marginalisation and us becoming an insignificant small country player on the world stage.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
10 November 2009
09:3132745barryw,my eyes are open and seeing a big picture emerging for the better,unlike you going around with your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears.wake up to the fact to that we are in by leaps and bounds regardless of euroscptics.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
10 November 2009
09:4232747For now Brian -more and more people are not willing to accept the deceit that characterised the way the EU do business. There will be a massive ant-EU backlash that will not be restricted to the UK.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
10 November 2009
11:4932753Barryw,
in your little world there will be, but out there where it matters people far happier on europe, those that wanted more say promised by the tories(who since went back on there word) are voting for anyone but tory.
You may not want to hear it barryw but there are a lot of disgruntled tories out there, those upset over tories broken promise on europe
those upset that tories not yet lurched quick enough to far right.
those in party who disgruntled cos party moving away from centre ground.
but hey barry, you carry on reading the telegraph, im sure it makes you feel better
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
10 November 2009
12:1232763Keith, you know so little about what is going on. The Telegraph, for instance, is not so supportive any more and come in for a lot of stick on ConHome....
I am one of the anti-EU right wingers who you say are 'disgruntled' 'upset by broken promises on Europe' and I myself am living proof you are wrong. Then there is the polling evidence as well against you. You can keep making assertions without any real evidence apart from the muttering of a very odd and isolated few. Provide polling ecidence in what you say - you cant, there is none, indeed it is showing the opposite.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
10 November 2009
12:2732766BAZ
Not just on europe, even your very own HESTLETINE is saying a hung parlianment!!! cant be much plainer than that!!!
Still i will be here for you after the general election, and i promise not to rub any salt in your wounds
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
10 November 2009
13:0832769kieth,rubbing salt into open wounds might be usefull in barrys case.might bring him into the real world.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
10 November 2009
14:4532774Keith - we have discussed this before... it is so tiresome when you ignore what has been said and repeat nonsense.
Heseltine was commenting on the structural electoral bias and pointing out the level of swing needed, based on an even national swing, he correctly pointed out that it is something of a mountian to climb. Polling evidence shows that the necessary swing is likley to happen and may be greater than the swing in 1997.
Dont worry, Keith I will take the greatest of pleasure rubbing salt into your wounds.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
10 November 2009
18:0032783i noticed in the times today their latest poll showing the blues 39% the reds 29%, both down a point on the previous poll.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
10 November 2009
18:0632785howard,where was the lib/dems in this poll.